.30 Carbine better than 5.56

[amd6547]

Rack grade carbines are $419 at CMP. I've read many posts at the CMP forum about rack grade carbines and how happy their owners are with them.
I opted for the service grade at $495, and I couldn't be happier. If you want a carbine, CMP is the only way to go.
To say that the AR is somehow ergonomically superior dosn't make sense. The carbine handles beautifully...the safety falls right under the trigger finger, the sights line up as soon as you shoulder it, light, short, and packs a 357-like punch. Recoil is negligable.
At 100 yards, I get 15 shot fist sized groups.
The carbine is a fantastic weapon, and a real triumph of American industry (6.5 million made in 5 years).
The fact that you can buy one from the CMP for about half it's market value is just icing on the cake.
I doubt that any bad guy shot in the chest with a 30carbine soft point will say "Whew, I'm glad it wasn't Hornady TAP out of an AR!".

 

[Tinpig]

.30 carbine ammo is no longer cheap. its at least as expensive if not more so then 5.56 so that puts a black mark on owning them.

$155 for a case of 500 FMJ (Aguila) from CMP if you don't mind the wait. Not bad in today's market, and I haven't seen .223 close to that for some time. I've used a lot of the Aguila .30 cal. Carbine ammo with no problems.

Tinpig

 

[greyling22]

but oh the wait is long. I"ve got a new cmp carbine in the next room and no ammo!!

 

[longdayjake]

I"ve got a new cmp carbine in the next room and no ammo!!

Just make your own. Atleast you have one. I ordered mine a few months ago and recently got CMP's email that they were processing my order. How much longer after that email did they ship your carbine?

 

[irishsquid]

The M1 carbine was designed to fill the gap between 1911 pistols and M1 Garands. It was originally intended for use by officers and rear-echelon troops. It was never intended to be a first line infantry weapon. It was under-powered from it's inception. G.I.'s often complained about it's lack of stopping power, especially in the Pacific theater where it often took several hits to bring down fanatical Japanese troops. I suppose one could argue that it was a decent weapon for it's intended purpose, but it's intended purpose was not as an infantry weapon.

Of course, the same "under-powered" complaint has been made about the 5.56mm since IT'S inception as well. The big difference is that the M-16 with it's 5.56mm cartridge WAS intended as a first line infantry weapon.

If I had to choose between the two for home defense, I'd probably opt for the HP .30 carbine. Seems like a more logical choice considering I'm not likely to face a banzai charge coming up my driveway or hordes of Red Chinese streaming across my backyard.

I'll also confess to being a bit biased because I'm a "wood and steel" guy.

 

[dagger dog]

Had an uncle thet served in WWII Army Air Force, East Anglia, 445 Bomb Group (H) 702nd Squadron.

All personel on the bases that were in the English country had to be armed, some being of small stature, (my uncle was a horseman, a jockey that only stood 5ft 3 inches) had small hands and the issued .45 1911 was so large it was hard to shoot accurately.

The smaller personel were always on the look out for a M1 Carbine which had the advantage of semi auto fire, over the S&W aircrew and Victory models.

The M1 carbine to large to be aboard the B24's and 17's, when flying missions, most carried the 1911 or the S&W's in a shoulder holster.

The M1 was handicapped by the cartridge it shot but the modern version pioneered by Sturm Ruger the Mini 14 is really an improved version of the M1 carbine, and not the M14 battle rifle, and it has the same advantages plus is chambered for a high velocity and pressure rifle round.

 

[HorseSoldier]

To say that the AR is somehow ergonomically superior dosn't make sense. The carbine handles beautifully...the safety falls right under the trigger finger, the sights line up as soon as you shoulder it, light, short, and packs a 357-like punch. Recoil is negligable.

A thumb-sweep safety is ergonomically quite a bit superior to one that requires you to use your trigger finger. Carbine charging handle is set up with the intent you break your firing grip to run it. Etc.

It's not a bad weapon, especially by the standards of the time, but there's a reason why its control layout has not been copied much down through the years.

 

[GRIZ22]

Up to 100 yards or so I'd go with either. Farther than that I'll go with the 5.56. Jim Cirillo thought the 30 carbine was pretty mediocre as a stakeout gun with the FMJ but a totally different animal with a JHP or SP.

 

[gripper]

Any here care to comment on the Auto Ordinance carbines? I hear they are making an M1A1 Paratrooper(model 150 IIRC).
I am not nuts about EITHER caliber,but they will do the job if you do yours.
Now,I wonder if the design could be scaled up to say 7.62X39 or 5.45X39We could call it the "Mikail1" carbine.
Seriously, I DO like the handiness of the carbine...I know hat they were "scaled down" to pistol caliber copies,and then there was the 5.7(IIRC) that was based on .30 carbine brass....so I THINK it could be done with out making it Garand or M14 sized while still handling a hotter cartridge.

 

[irishsquid]

Any here care to comment on the Auto Ordinance carbines?

I'm not taking a shot at Auto Ordinance, but if I were buying an M1 carbine, I'd get the genuine real deal from CMP. I wish I could afford one. Stupid economy.

 

[amd6547]

I have an AR, and yes, the thumb safety is quite convenient. But there is nothing wrong with the carbine safety, and sweeping it with the trigger finger is very fast. The op slide can be used with the left hand with out removing the trigger hand from the grip.
The only real operational advantage the AR hold over the carbine is the bolt hold open on the last shot.
My AR is a home made retro A1, and I love shooting it...I also wouldn't have a problem using it for SD. But the carbine is my first choice for my home defense longarm.
As for AO carbines, why spend $600 when you can get GI cheaper? I added a repro M1A1 folder I found used on GunBroker cheap, and that is how my CMP Inland is set up for home use.

 

[amd6547]

...And a pic in the stock it came from the CMP with. I could probably sell the stock alone for $100 to $150, as it is an early I-cut version.

 

[mljdeckard]

(That's exactly like my setup.)

 

[2ndAmFan]

JMHO, but I wouldn't bother spending the $$ for an M1 carbine these days unless it was near mint condition and I planned to keep it as a collector's item.
I also wouldn't want to use an AR15 for primary HD due to over penetration concerns, not to mention too much effective range. If the BG is 300 yards away he probably isn't a threat.
My father and one of my uncles served in the Marine Corps during the Korean war and both slammed the M1 carbine for lack of power and range. If the round had been loaded to rifle rather than pistol pressures they would have been a good deal better. My uncle managed to trade his in on a Garand after a few months in-country, though I don't know how he did that. Guess he knew the right guy somewhere. While I do think an M1 carbine is a good choice for HD, for exactly the same reasons my father and uncle disliked it for combat, if your primary purpose is HD why not buy a good .357? You could probably find either a carbine or revolver for a lot less $$.

 

[amd6547]

No one doubts that the FMJ 30 carbine round is not the best load for self defense, though some liked it just fine...the citation above, for example, and Audie Murphy, for another.
The 30 carbine is very similar to the 357 mag, but in a lightweight quick handling carbine that fires 15 (or 30) rounds as fast as you can pull the trigger, and can be reloaded very quickly.
Yes, I have a very nice handgun which is my first response for SD. But the carbine is handy as well.

 

[Defense Minister]

When it comes to rifles for HD, I can't imagine a better combination than an M1 carbine and Cor Bon's 110 grain DPX hollowpoints. But, at about $2 a round, it would be awful spendy to put enough through your gun to be sure they would function properly.

 

[Guero4179]

Google.

30 carbine tests on this board showed 16+ and penetrated the block at .4 something diameter

but Nosler partition 223 did the same at .397 or so dia and with more velocity

Its close but the hotter round wins but 223 ball cannot match 30 cal soft points.

 

[rebel71]

also wouldn't want to use an AR15 for primary HD due to over penetration concerns

On a show called "The Best Defense" on the Outdoor channel there was a demonstration showing how many layers of drywall different rounds would penetrate. Surprisingly, two pistols tested penetrated several more layers than 5.56 did. After two or three layers, the 5.56 broke apart while the pistol rounds did not and ended up penetrating five or six layers.

 

[2ndAmFan]

rebel71: AK74 5.45x39 also outpenetrated 5.56 by a whole lot of layers, but it depends to a large extent on what bullet you use. I guess I should just admit it: I don't like the 5.56x45 round for HD/SD purposes. I never have. I've shot quite a few AR 15s and their clones on the range over the years and I enjoy target shooting with them but I don't like them for HD or SD. Not trying to question the judgment of anyone who does like them, just MHO. I'd rather have a bigger, heavier round. M1 carbine would be fine with me for HD except that they're likely to go way up in value and I'd rather not fire one unless it's already had so many rounds through it that it won't affect the value one way or the other.

 

[dscottw88]

Nope

 

[HorseSoldier]

AK74 5.45x39 also outpenetrated 5.56 by a whole lot of layers, but it depends to a large extent on what bullet you use.

Green tip versus Bulgarian military issue ammo in some informal testing we did at my last unit didn't reveal much difference between the two calibers, on auto bodies or penetrating kevlar armor panels. Both basically start losing penetration rapidly as they yaw. Like reb71 noted, issue 9mm will outperform both of them penetrating car bodies consistently.

 

[dmckean44]

Auto-Ordnance or someone should make one in 10mm. I'd buy that for home defense in a heartbeat.

 

[jbech123]

look at the year it was published. That long ago ar15's were banned and even for LE they were pricy compared to cheap m1 carbines.

AR-15's were banned in 2001? News to me.

 

[lencac]

If the SHTF and I had just minutes to gather a few things and scoot I guess I'd grab one of my M1 carbines and all the ammo I could carry, which for an M1 is a considerable amount. Then I'd circle back later and grab my M1A, 1903's, Rem Model 11 12 ga. and of course don't for get the .458 Win mag for those stampeding elephants