.30 Carbine bullets in .30-06 reduced loads?

[1KPerDay]

Kinda want to try this. I have access to an indoor range with steel plates at 18 yards. Obviously we don't shoot full power rifle rounds at the steel that close for safety reasons and it damages the steel (AR500).

However, .30 Carbine is closer to a high velocity .357 pistol round and doesn't beat up the steel too much. Would it be possible to load Trail Boss or reduced H4895 loads in .30-06 and get down to around 2000 fps or preferably less? It'd be fun to run a 1903 on steel plates indoors. I don't have a chrono.

I've read here that 4895 can safely be downloaded 60%... so could I take a starting published 110 grain load and reduce the charge from there or is there another consideration I'm missing?

Ah, Hodgdon says start at the max published load and then 60%.

https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/H4895 Reduced Rifle Loads.pdf

 

[LoonWulf]

Ive had some major issues working with reduced loads in a case as large as the 30-06, velocity spreads been all over the place, and getting 110s down to around 2000fps using 4895 would be imo very tricky. Id suggest trailboss for what you want, to go that low.

Whats hodgdons site is suggesting, i believe atleast, is to be used to develop lower powered rifle type loads....say 2500-2700fps range, which will still be too fast for what you want.

If you decide to pursue the idea, ill loan you one of my chronos if youll share the data with us, id actually be really interested but dont have the time to devote to downloading an 06 that much.

 

[RPRNY]

I did this with 15 grs of TB and the 86 grs short jacket Mauser pistol bullet, so using the 110 grs should be a treat. Fill case to bullet base - no compression. This is max load. Weigh load. Starting load is 70% of this weight. Work up to accuracy. I expect you'll find it between 17 an 18 grs.

 

[1KPerDay]

Thank you. Do you happen to have Velocity figures for that load?

 

[reddog81]

I've heard 10 grains unique is a good starting load for LEAD bullets in .30-06 light loads. I'm not sure about jacketed bullets though.

 

[Jake in TX]

This is reminiscent of "The Load" by Ed Harris, 13 gr Red Dot under a 200 gr cast lead bullet, producing about 1450 FPS from a 24 in barrel. Not sure if "The Load" should be used with lighter jacketed bullets; perhaps there are some here who have used it.

Jake in TX

 

[RPRNY]

Thank you. Do you happen to have Velocity figures for that load?

I don't. But Hodgdon gives 1061 fps for a 150 grs Nosler over 13.3 grs. Using finger in the wind math, 15 - 17 grs TB with the 110 gr bullet looks like 1300 - 1500 fps ?

 

[Ike Arumba]

This is reminiscent of "The Load" by Ed Harris, 13 gr Red Dot under a 200 gr cast lead bullet, producing about 1450 FPS from a 24 in barrel. Not sure if "The Load" should be used with lighter jacketed bullets; perhaps there are some here who have used it.

Jake in TX

I have used The Load in .308 Win using 110gr Carbine bullets. It works.

 

[1KPerDay]

Thanks. Do you have velocity for those, perhaps?

 

[horsey300]

Ive had some major issues working with reduced loads in a case as large as the 30-06, velocity spreads been all over the place, and getting 110s down to around 2000fps using 4895 would be imo very tricky. Id suggest trailboss for what you want, to go that low.

Whats hodgdons site is suggesting, i believe atleast, is to be used to develop lower powered rifle type loads....say 2500-2700fps range, which will still be too fast for what you want.

If you decide to pursue the idea, ill loan you one of my chronos if youll share the data with us, id actually be really interested but dont have the time to devote to downloading an 06 that much.

Were you using magnum primers? Would that have made a difference? I heard of/read about a feller downloading his 30-06 to a .22lr for squirrel plinking but have no idea what his recipe was, that was shortly before I joined up here and it might have even been a thr member.....

 

[LoonWulf]

Probably not, i rarely use mags even in my "magnum" loads. Worth trying it with them you think?

 

[macgrumpy]

A few years ago the Wahsatch range had a guy that took a round in the chest because he was shooting his AK at steel that was about 15 yards away, that was a full powered AK round but it demonstrates the idea pretty well.

Most people agree that 7 yards is the minimum for steel targets using handguns with a max velocity of 1500 fps. Some experts explain that the trick is to drive the bullet hard so that it will shatter in to small pieces but that's all predicated on using pistol bullets on new steel that is angled about 20 degrees so that any splatter will be directed toward the ground where they will bury themselves.

Using that Hornady info QuickLoad estimates somewhere around 1900 FPS from an M1.

You are talking about shooting heavier construction rifle bullets (even a 30 carbine bullet is tougher than most pistol bullets used in short range competition), at twice the distance but at a higher velocity. If your steel hangs at a 20 degree angle then the metal chunks will ricochet in to the concrete floor and bounce who knows where. If the steel hangs at 90 degrees then the chunks will ricochet straight back. Personally I'd say that it's a bad idea.

 

[horsey300]

A few years ago the Wahsatch range had a guy that took a round in the chest because he was shooting his AK at steel that was about 15 yards away, that was a full powered AK round but it demonstrates the idea pretty well.

Most people agree that 7 yards is the minimum for steel targets using handguns with a max velocity of 1500 fps. Some experts explain that the trick is to drive the bullet hard so that it will shatter in to small pieces but that's all predicated on using pistol bullets on new steel that is angled about 20 degrees so that any splatter will be directed toward the ground where they will bury themselves.

Using that Hornady info QuickLoad estimates somewhere around 1900 FPS from an M1.

You are talking about shooting heavier construction rifle bullets (even a 30 carbine bullet is tougher than most pistol bullets used in short range competition), at twice the distance but at a higher velocity. If your steel hangs at a 20 degree angle then the metal chunks will ricochet in to the concrete floor and bounce who knows where. If the steel hangs at 90 degrees then the chunks will ricochet straight back. Personally I'd say that it's a bad idea.

I don't shoot indoors so forgive my ignorance, would this still be an issue with a varmint 110 HP?

 

[horsey300]

Probably not, i rarely use mags even in my "magnum" loads. Worth trying it with them you think?

I haven't found a reason to use magnum primers myself, but it sounds like you're basically dealing with an inconsistent ignition from the bullet possibly being in motion before ALL of the pressure gets behind it, grains laying below the shoulder angle?? (like a motor sputtering with watered down fuel) so maybe the hotter start could fire the case up a little more efficiently, that's a LONG case to burn and in theory, you're needing the primer to stretch farther for a "good" ignition. Smokeless powders burn too slow, more like a cannon fuse, so if you throw the heat farther you could (in theory) get a more consistent burn rate. I grew up playing with black powder vs h414 in various scenarios and I promise black powder would pop evenly on ignition. For such extreme downloads, in my backyard, with a homemade chamber, I would test a light load of black powder in the 06 case and work up slow but that really is counter productive and might as well grab an old cap and ball .32. THE ENTIRETY OF THIS POST IS PURELY SUPPOSITION AND HYPOTHETICAL AND I DO NOT RECOMMEND ANYONE TRYING THIS AS IT IS NOT A STANDARD PRACTICE AND COULD BECOME DANGEROUS FAST. If I were loading for OP purposes, I would try a magnum primer......however, if I ever want to see a .30 moving indoors, I will either build a custom range for heavy hitters, or I will let an unloaded bullet run under the vacuum and watch it sail at my head upon the wife's discovery of the cause of the noise.


ETA, per OP..... would your range even allow that -06 through the door? Instinct tells me that for obvious liability reasons, they shouldn't, and moreover, the assurances of a guy without a chronograph would mean little to me if you proposed setting up while I was standing there next to you.... this is a very novel idea and could lead to great fun but possibly at a different venue.

 

[1KPerDay]

It's a private range and the backstop is rated for .50BMG.

Macgrumpy brings up an interesting point. I hadn't considered bullet construction. However if .30 Carbine bullets are fine when fired from .30 Carbines at 1900-2000fps I don't see why they wouldn't be fine fired at similar velocities from .30-06, assuming that is possible. Maybe I'll buy some lead ones or actually start casting. You think wheel weights would break up proper-like?

 

[Sunray]

At 18 yards, I suspect you'll have back splashing jacket bits out of a Carbine too.
"...starting published 110 grain load..." That's 51 grains of H4895. 60% of that is 20.4. There isn't any published TB data. At least not from Hodgdon. There is this though. No 110 grain bullets listed. http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf
There's no need for magnum primers. Those are strictly about the powder used.
"...backstop is rated for .50BMG..." Isn't about the rating of the back stop. It's about how far the spent bullet will fly. I've been hit by jacketed .45 ACP bullet that flew a lot farther than 18 feet. Bounced off my leg a couple times and the torn jacket scratched me. Carried the thing around my neck for a few years pretending it was the one with my name on it. snicker.

 

[horsey300]

It's a private range and the backstop is rated for .50BMG.

Macgrumpy brings up an interesting point. I hadn't considered bullet construction. However if .30 Carbine bullets are fine when fired from .30 Carbines at 1900-2000fps I don't see why they wouldn't be fine fired at similar velocities from .30-06, assuming that is possible. Maybe I'll buy some lead ones or actually start casting. You think wheel weights would break up proper-like?

Why do you think the carbine bullets are fine? Macgrumpy said they'd be too hard and ricochet easily if there's any kind of an angle and that it would probably be a bad idea. The cast bullets MIGHT work, but it's hard to find true lead tire weights, before I left the shop couple years ago, they were already being phased out by alloy, I don't have my Lyman manual here but I definitely say softer bhn, even my target .22 lr solid lead at 1800 over a chronograph are ricocheting at even the SLIGHTEST of angles off of even thin tin appliance shells..... if you're dead set on this I recommend sinter https://www.sinterfire.com/Shop/Bullets/Rifle/308-Winchester.aspx they are the truest frangible .30 I know of. Watch a video or read a few articles on them. I suggest loading them to whatever velocity you safely can and set up a few targets at various distances (starting farther out and working in) at several angles from 10 degrees to 150 or so and test the snot out of them. If they all fragment fully and go no further than a foot or two after impact (the shrapnel) then you just might be in business. These bullets kill with inertial shock more than penetration so they might be worth a try, but generally the slower a bullet goes, the more it refuses to expand, thus the risk of ricocheting. I've shot targets up close before with high power loads and a varmint bullet going 3400 fps goes NOWHERE (splash) after hitting something at 20 yds, just last weekend I shot at a 140 degree angle with frozen ground for a back drop and the super explosive flying at almost 3200 fps at 10 yds scored a pattern of about 3in wide by 6in long. That same bullet at 350 yds will fully exit soft targets (coyotes, leaving huge exits suggesting full detonation but there's no way to know) and at 100 yds the fragments were dug out of an 8 in pine stump at about 4.5 inches. In your scenario frangible fast would be safer than slow anything.

ETA from testing to intended use I'd DEFINITELY be wearing protective gear as all those fragments may lose their energy in terms of inches rather than yds or ft but there's no reason to "shoot your eye out with that thing".

 

[Jim Watson]

If the guys have gotten you worried about the hard carbine FMJ on close range steel, look at the Speer Plinker
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/6...rain-plinker-round-nose-soft-point-box-of-100

Speer No 12 does not show that bullet below 2000 fps with anything but SR4759, no longer available. But if you look at the fourth customer review, you might get an idea of something that would work. See also Lyman data for the cast 115 gr .30. Don't go TOO light, it is possible to stick the half jacket in the barrel and the core hit the target so you do not realize anything is wrong. I saw this happen in an underloaded .38 revolver.

ETA:
You can buy coated lead bullets from places like Missouri Bullet Co., and load them right out of Lyman's cast bullet data.
http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=212&category=6&secondary=&keywords=

 

[1KPerDay]

"...starting published 110 grain load..." That's 51 grains of H4895. 60% of that is 20.4.

Actually it's 30.6.

 

[macgrumpy]

I can't say how the different bullets will work but I can say that I don't want to be the guy that pulls the trigger on this experiment - pun intended.

 

[ants]

Use Lyman's loads for cast lead bullets with pistol powder.
You can get lead bullets for M1 carbine cheap and easy.
With or without polymer coating. Cost way less than jacketed bullets.

The standard warning from decades ago using Lyman pistol powder loads with jacketed bullets:
A jacketed bullet (supposedly) can be stuck in the bore, because it has more friction than lead.
Lead bullet data are just tested for lead bullets, not jacketed. Use with lead bullets only.
I can't swear it's true, that's just what they said in days past.
It was always the standard warning, and might still be valid. I can't swear to it.

 

[243winxb]

Google USE OF BULLET TRAPS AND STEEL TARGETS - Energy.gov




Look for the PDF file on bottom of page.


I would not shoot steel at 18 yards. But thats just me.

 

[DownInTheDark]

I have loaded 38 special/357 mag bullets in the 35 Whelen. Speer's 14th edition has the details if that helps at all.

 

[macgrumpy]

A jacketed bullet (supposedly) can be stuck in the bore, because it has more friction than lead.

It's sounds crazy but it makes sense, the coefficient of friction for copper and zinc (what most jackets are made of) is greater than it is for lead and hardened lead would have even less friction.

 

[rskent]

Has anyone ever made this work?

I have tried reduced loads with lead bullets from 100 to 178 grain and jacked bullets from 110 to 150 grain. I have tried Red Dot, Trail Boss and 4895, plus a few more. I have never got any results worth, well anything. I haven’t got any result, accuracy wise, worth going further with. The best accuracy I have gotten at 25 yards is groups that are bigger than the groups I get with M2 ball. About two inches. Sad.