303 British question

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Risky buisness

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Hi folks, having recently acquired a nice # 4 mk1* I thought to ask if anyone reloading for this cartridge fire forms brass before full charge loading. As with many of these rifles the chamber is quite generous and mine really works new brass hard. I was thinking that a lite charge, cast bullet and annealing after firing may help getting at least 2 or 3 loads before they fail. Any experiences?
 
Risky buisness said:
Hi folks, having recently acquired a nice # 4 mk1* I thought to ask if anyone reloading for this cartridge fire forms brass before full charge loading. As with many of these rifles the chamber is quite generous and mine really works new brass hard. I was thinking that a lite charge, cast bullet and annealing after firing may help getting at least 2 or 3 loads before they fail. Any experiences?
Click to expand...
I have been reloading .303 for several decades and have never fire-formed sized brass. I have neck sized for 3-5 consecutive loads before relieving then full-length sizing; but it has never occurred to me to do what you suggest. It’s an interesting idea. All I can suggest is, try it and compare your results to full-length sized every firing, and neck-only sized for 3-5 firings between full-length sizing. I would also suggest comparing traditional high-heat “annealing” to lower temperature (550-650F) stress relief heating.
 
As suggested above, 303 Brit is a great cast bullet shooter. Something in the 175-210 grs realm, gas checked, and over about 22 grs of IMR 4227 or another appropriate cast powder. Wouldn’t bother fire forming as a separate step. But annealing after first firing and then neck-sizing only will help brass life and accuracy.
 
Try putting an O-ring around the brass the first time you shoot it. Holds it centered in the chamber so it doesn’t have to expand so much in one direction to fill the generous chamber. Google “o ring trick” for details. This combined with neck sizing can really extend brass life in a military Enfield.
 
I only neck size mine. I re anneal after the 4th reload. Full length sizing for the No. 4 puts a lot of stress on the brass. Compare a factory or full-sized round to a fire formed round. The shoulder is pushed forward on the fired round because of the generous chamber on the No. 4.
 
Most military 303's have generous headspace. Most specimens Ive measured was between 0.010" to 0.015".
Mostly the damage is done with the first firing. This can be corrected if you are lucky enough to find a larger bolt-head to screw on. If you cannot get the headspace down to 0.005" then more creative measures are needed.

What we have learnt to do was use the "o-ring trick" mentioned above, then full-length size the case as if it is a normal rimless bottle-neck case that headspaces on the shoulder. Set the sizing die to push back the shoulder only around 0.003". Doing this you have easy chambering cartridges with an extended brass life similar to other hunting rifle chamberings.
 
Thanks for the responces guys, theirs some good stuff here. Let me explain my thought process. Like a black powder cartridge is what im thinking, fire form to the chamber aneal the brass, neck size only by passing completly any case reforming.
I've addressed the wee bit long headspace with a longer bolt head already. If I can get by with it and fire only moderate loads the brass should last for a bit.
It was unusual at best, to compare an unfired case to one that my rifle has ' resized '. This brsaa is hard to find.
 
Dip your 303 cartridges "in the service fashion" in oil and shoot them. This will prevent the case from gripping the chamber and prevent case head separations.

WS6nFLb.jpg

The basic problem with all the Lee Enfield actions is due to being rear locking, the bolt compresses much more than front lockers. In fact, with over pressure charges, the bolt bows! With a dry case in a dry chamber the front of the case sticks in the chamber while the back end has to stretch because the bolt is compressing.

Under no condition load over pressure cartridges in Lee Enfields. This is not a strong action, in fact about a decade ago the British NRA was sending out warnings about metal fatigue for Lee Enfields used by competition shooters. The last No 4 MKII's were built was around 1955, which is 68 years ago. The war time actions (the war ended in 1945) were built under the "get it out the door" incentive system. Given the nation could fail within the calendar year, a decades long lifetime was of less importance then getting the rifle out the door. A rebarreled action that went through a rebuild program has used up one barrel of fatigue lifetime. Various sources state the maximum pressure of the service cartridge was around 44,000 psia. It is best to use loads in the 40,000 psia range and provide margin if the cartridges are used in hot weather. You can see in the reference, that the 303 Brit pushed a 174 grain bullet 2440 fps. And no faster!

https://303british.com/cartridge-specifications/
 
Slamfire said:
Dip your 303 cartridges "in the service fashion" in oil and shoot them. This will prevent the case from gripping the chamber and prevent case head separations.

View attachment 1156983

The basic problem with all the Lee Enfield actions is due to being rear locking, the bolt compresses much more than front lockers. In fact, with over pressure charges, the bolt bows! With a dry case in a dry chamber the front of the case sticks in the chamber while the back end has to stretch because the bolt is compressing.

Under no condition load over pressure cartridges in Lee Enfields. This is not a strong action, in fact about a decade ago the British NRA was sending out warnings about metal fatigue for Lee Enfields used by competition shooters. The last No 4 MKII's were built was around 1955, which is 68 years ago. The war time actions (the war ended in 1945) were built under the "get it out the door" incentive system. Given the nation could fail within the calendar year, a decades long lifetime was of less importance then getting the rifle out the door. A rebarreled action that went through a rebuild program has used up one barrel of fatigue lifetime. Various sources state the maximum pressure of the service cartridge was around 44,000 psia. It is best to use loads in the 40,000 psia range and provide margin if the cartridges are used in hot weather. You can see in the reference, that the 303 Brit pushed a 174 grain bullet 2440 fps. And no faster!

https://303british.com/cartridge-specifications/
Click to expand...

Very usefull information I had toyed with the idea of lubed cartridges, thinking wax but oil sounds great too. I really have no desire to hot rod a 303, to me its much like a larger 3030 case and Im going to act accordingly. I have 1 mold for the rifle, a 160 rn that looks promising with reduced charges and 2200 fps max I should have lots of fun with the old girl.
And thanks for the reply.
 
I’ve got a 1943 Fazerkerly #4Mk1 that’s been FTR at Fazerkerly with a new stock and barrel. Bolt has a “1” stamp. It locks up like a new rifle, and new fired cases are only slightly elongated with a rounded shoulder profile.
My reloads are delightfully accurate. I’m only partially full length sizing by only sizing the neck and just touching the shoulder. Case body is only lightly sized so case growth from firing is minimal.
My favorite load is a Lee 160gr PtGC @.314” from a slightly modified 6-cavity mold. (Aluminum tape applied to increase bullet diameter by .003”. I size/lube in a Lyman 450 and apply Hornady gas checks.
Over 20gr of #2400 it shoots to sights at 50yds.
Splendid for attempting a “mad minute” !
Most accurate is the currently in unavailable Hornady 174gr .312” BTHPT match bullet over 43.0gr of BLC2. This closely matches the original MkVII load at 2,440fps.

For factory loads I favor the PrviPartizan 180gr BtSPT BT load.
It’s “warm” at 2,500fps+. Great reloadable brass.
I get 6-7 loadings before trimming and annealing. Trimmed after initial firing.
 
Last edited:
[QU
OTE="GooseGestapo, post: 12651407, member: 2694"]I’ve got a 1943 Fazerkerly #4Mk1 that’s been FTR at Fazerkerly with a new stock and barrel. Bolt has a “1” stamp. It locks up like a new rifle, and new fired cases are only slightly elongated with a rounded shoulder profile.
My reloads are delightfully accurate. I’m only partially full length sizing by only sizing the neck and just touching the shoulder. Case body is only lightly sized so case growth from firing is minimal.
My favorite load is a Lee 160gr PtGC @.314” from a slightly modified 6-cavity mold. (Aluminum tape applied to increase bullet diameter by .003”. I size/lube in a Lyman 450 and apply Hornady gas checks.
Over 20gr of #2400 it shoots to sights at 50yds.
Splendid for attempting a “mad minute” !
Most accurate is the currently in unavailable Hornady 174gr .312” BTHPT match bullet over 43.0gr of BLC2. This closely matches the original MkVII load at 2,440fps.

Great info. Thanks. My Savage is a 43, had a little headspace cleared up to within spec, for me at least with a # 2 bolt head. My particular specimen is original with no rework. Fired NZ milsurp 84 date cartridges hsve quite noticeable shoulder movement but not much diameter increase. I too have the Lee 160 gc bullet and it also drops .314, as sluged bbl is
.313 i size and lube at . 314
My first thoughts were damn I may get 1 reload if full legnth sizing, remembering that my bpcr has never seen a resized case, only light crimp dies and i have dozens of reloads on that brass, I hope to replicate that with the 303. I believe thst bumping the shoulder only s tiny amount with neck sizing will suffice. Another poster mentioned lubed cases and I think im going to try that. Other than the full power millsurp i hsve fired to obtain some brass I've loaded several just neck sized 160gc over red dot , uhmm 12- 14 grs so far. Im actually hoping to imitate 30-30 velocities with the 160 gr so 2200 will be more than sufficient.
Plenty of things to try. But first, have to rework that milsurp brass and get rid of the berdan priming thing. Can't seem to locate any unfired cases, and loaded is very spotty. Thsnks again


QUOTE]
 
Risky buisness said:
[QU
OTE="GooseGestapo, post: 12651407, member: 2694"]I’ve got a 1943 Fazerkerly #4Mk1 that’s been FTR at Fazerkerly with a new stock and barrel. Bolt has a “1” stamp. It locks up like a new rifle, and new fired cases are only slightly elongated with a rounded shoulder profile.
My reloads are delightfully accurate. I’m only partially full length sizing by only sizing the neck and just touching the shoulder. Case body is only lightly sized so case growth from firing is minimal.
My favorite load is a Lee 160gr PtGC @.314” from a slightly modified 6-cavity mold. (Aluminum tape applied to increase bullet diameter by .003”. I size/lube in a Lyman 450 and apply Hornady gas checks.
Over 20gr of #2400 it shoots to sights at 50yds.
Splendid for attempting a “mad minute” !
Most accurate is the currently in unavailable Hornady 174gr .312” BTHPT match bullet over 43.0gr of BLC2. This closely matches the original MkVII load at 2,440fps.

Great info. Thanks. My Savage is a 43, had a little headspace cleared up to within spec, for me at least with a # 2 bolt head. My particular specimen is original with no rework. Fired NZ milsurp 84 date cartridges hsve quite noticeable shoulder movement but not much diameter increase. I too have the Lee 160 gc bullet and it also drops .314, as sluged bbl is
.313 i size and lube at . 314
My first thoughts were damn I may get 1 reload if full legnth sizing, remembering that my bpcr has never seen a resized case, only light crimp dies and i have dozens of reloads on that brass, I hope to replicate that with the 303. I believe thst bumping the shoulder only s tiny amount with neck sizing will suffice. Another poster mentioned lubed cases and I think im going to try that. Other than the full power millsurp i hsve fired to obtain some brass I've loaded several just neck sized 160gc over red dot , uhmm 12- 14 grs so far. Im actually hoping to imitate 30-30 velocities with the 160 gr so 2200 will be more than sufficient.
Plenty of things to try. But first, have to rework that milsurp brass and get rid of the berdan priming thing. Can't seem to locate any unfired cases, and loaded is very spotty. Thsnks again


QUOTE]
Click to expand...
Old milsurps is where I think a custom die makes perfect sense. As brass becomes more rare and more expensive, reducing the failure of brass due to overworking and having optimal fit in a bigger chamber makes a ton of sense... probably what I will do with my 7.7.
 
AJC1 said:
Old milsurps is where I think a custom die makes perfect sense. As brass becomes more rare and more expensive, reducing the failure of brass due to overworking and having optimal fit in a bigger chamber makes a ton of sense... probably what I will do with my 7.7.
Click to expand...

Now that, is a great idea. Any ideas on where to start looking for someone that would make, or modify one?
 
Perhaps first understanding what one's up against reloading the venerable old .303 and also perhaps having a gunsmith snug up the head space would be preferable . Thus saving brass and frustration ?. Last Limey thing I owned was a Webley .455 aka The Boer War Wonder ( Wonder said troops didn't dispense with their own officers ) !. Horrible gun IMO .

https://303british.com/reloading-the-303-british-chambers-and-headspace/
 
Oiling commercial cartridges before firing is a very bad idea. This increases the bolt-thrust a lot! It is described as the poor man's proofload.

Either use the oring method or get the head-space right.
 
JerkyFreak said:
Oiling commercial cartridges before firing is a very bad idea. This increases the bolt-thrust a lot! It is described as the poor man's proofload.
Ether use the oring method or get the head-space right.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. And the concern.
the head space is fine, not the issue. The chamber is loose allowing the case shoulder to move forward to fill the void, stretching the brass. I dont want it to do that. I have no interest in lubing full power commercial or milsurp ammunition, were it required it would have been supplied on those cartridges.
Low power cast loads only, neck sized, perhaps a custom die as one poster suggested. Lubing the cartridge with wax, not oil as I have no information for it, is pethaps an option. As I understand it, the thin coating prevents, to a degree the case from obturating sufficiently to grip the chamber wall tightly enough to make extraction easier and prevent further diameter increase. I had originally planned to anneal the fired cases to remove the work hardning giving the case, hopefully a little longer life.
The 303, in my case at least, is challenging, from the standpoint of keeping it shooting with this sloppy chamber eventually wrecking very hard to replace brass. As time allows I will explore the ' o ring ' method as previously mentioned, perhaps i can wrap my head around that. But for now, I have 20 cases, divided into lots of 5 for different treatments and observations.
 
Risky buisness said:
Thanks for the info. And the concern.
the head space is fine, not the issue. The chamber is loose allowing the case shoulder to move forward to fill the void, stretching the brass. I dont want it to do that. I have no interest in lubing full power commercial or milsurp ammunition, were it required it would have been supplied on those cartridges.
Low power cast loads only, neck sized, perhaps a custom die as one poster suggested. Lubing the cartridge with wax, not oil as I have no information for it, is pethaps an option. As I understand it, the thin coating prevents, to a degree the case from obturating sufficiently to grip the chamber wall tightly enough to make extraction easier and prevent further diameter increase. I had originally planned to anneal the fired cases to remove the work hardning giving the case, hopefully a little longer life.
The 303, in my case at least, is challenging, from the standpoint of keeping it shooting with this sloppy chamber eventually wrecking very hard to replace brass. As time allows I will explore the ' o ring ' method as previously mentioned, perhaps i can wrap my head around that. But for now, I have 20 cases, divided into lots of 5 for different treatments and observations.
Click to expand...
Jamming the bullet is one way to fire form and a false shoulder is another. The grease oil thing is not something I would do.
 
Risky buisness said:
. Lubing the cartridge with wax, not oil as I have no information for it, is pethaps an option. As I understand it, the thin coating prevents, to a degree the case from obturating sufficiently to grip the chamber wall tightly enough to make extraction easier and prevent further diameter increase. I had originally planned to anneal the fired cases to remove the work hardning giving the case, hopefully a little longer life.
.
Click to expand...

Just leave the sizing die lube on the cases. Size, trim, prime, add powder and bullet. Don't remove the lubricant. If you prefer a dry lube, try Johnson Paste Wax. It works great for me with 308 Win in my M1a, and 30-06 in my Garand. John Pedersen used his own special blend of ceresin wax and a solvent, Johnson Paste wax has several waxes in it, ceresin is in there. It dries hard and does not attract dirt. It works as he said in his patent:


http://www.google.com/patents/US1780566

Patented Nov. 4, 1930 PATENT OFFICE JOHN DOUGLAS PEDERSEN, OF SPRINGFIELD, MASSACHUSETTS 11,0 Drawing.

This invention relates to a process for coating cartridges and more particularly the affixing of a coating of hard wax to the metal case of a cartridge; and the object of the invention is to provide a method whereby cartridges may be coated with great uniformity with an extremely thin film, and also whereby a relatively large number of cartridges may be coated in a short time and at small cost.

In the preparation of cartridges having metal cases for storage and for use, it has been found desirable to apply to said metal case a relatively thin coating of some protective substance which will preserve said metal case for comparatively long periods of time against-deterioration, such as season cracking. In the present invention, the material for said coating has been so chosen as to perform the additional function of acting as a lubricant for the case of the cartridge, both for facilitating introduction into the chamber of the gun and the extraction thereof after firing. The most suitable wax which I have found for this purpose and which I at present prefer is ceresin, a refined product of ozokerite; but I wish it to be understood that other waxes having similar qualities may exist which might serve equally well. Some of the desirable features of ceresin are that it is hard and non-tacky at ordinary temperatures having a melting point somewhere between 140 and 176 Fahrenheit. It is smooth and glassy when hard and does not gather dirt or dust. However, when the ceresin on the cartridges is melted in the chamber of a gun, it becomes a lubricant.

Other lubricating waxes have been employed for coating cartridges, and the method most generally pursued for applying said coating to the cartridge case has been to prepare a heated bath of a solution of the wax in a suitable solvent, dip the cartridges therein so that a film of the solution will adhere thereto, and finally withdraw the cartridges to permit the solvent to evaporate from the coating film. This former process is comparatively slow and has been found lacking in several important respects.



What they got wrong in the video is the claim that the wax is for better extraction. In fact, without a lubricant, the case would have been pulled in half, or the rim would have been ripped off. The Pedersen rifle is a retarded blowback, and all high power retarded blowback weapons require a lubricant, for the reasons that General Hatcher wrote about in the 1930's


Army Ordnance Magazine, March-April 1933

Automatic Firearms, Mechanical Principles used in the various types, by J. S. Hatcher. Chief Smalls Arms Division Washington DC.

Retarded Blow-back Mechanism………………………..

There is one queer thing, however, that is common to almost all blow-back and retarded blow-back guns, and that is that there is a tendency to rupture the cartridges unless they are lubricated. This is because the moment the explosion occurs the thin front end of the cartridge case swells up from the internal pressure and tightly grips the walls of the chamber. Cartridge cases are made with a strong solid brass head a thick wall near the rear end, but the wall tapers in thickness until the front end is quiet thin so that it will expand under pressure of the explosion and seal the chamber against the escape of gas to the rear. When the gun is fired the thin front section expands as intended and tightly grips the walls of the chamber, while the thick rear portion does not expand enough to produce serious friction. The same pressure that operates to expand the walls of the case laterally, also pushes back with the force of fifty thousand pounds to the square inch on the head of the cartridge, and the whole cartridge being made of elastic brass stretches to the rear and , in effect, give the breech block a sharp blow with starts it backward. The front end of the cartridge being tightly held by the friction against the walls of the chamber, and the rear end being free to move back in this manner under the internal pressure, either one of two things will happen. In the first case, the breech block and the head of the cartridge may continue to move back, tearing the cartridge in two and leaving the front end tightly stuck in the chamber; or, if the breech block is sufficiently retarded so that it does not allow a very violent backward motion, the result may simply be that the breech block moves back a short distance and the jerk of the extractor on the cartridge case stops it, and the gun will not operate.

However this difficultly can be overcome entirely by lubricating the cartridges in some way. In the Schwarzlose machine gun there is a little pump installed in the mechanism which squirts a single drop of oil into the chamber each time the breech block goes back. In the Thompson Auto-rifle there are oil-soaked pads in the magazine which contains the cartridges. In the Pedersen semiautomatic rifle the lubrication is taken care of by coating the cartridges with a light film of wax.

Blish Principle….There is no doubt that this mechanism can be made to operate as described, provided the cartridge are lubricated, …. That this type of mechanism actually opens while there is still considerable pressure in the cartridge case is evident from the fact that the gun does not operate satisfactorily unless the cartridges are lubricated.

Thompson Sub-Machine Gun: … Owing to the low pressure involved in the pistol cartridge, it is not necessary to lubricate the case.

“Blow-Forward” Mechanism: We have seen above (blowback mechanism) that some method must be provided to hold the breech block against the barrel when the gun is fired, because otherwise the pressure of the powder gas pushing back on the cartridge case would drive the breech block back away from the barrel and let the cartridge out while the explosion was going on. With the blow-back gun the breech block is allowed to move in this manner, but is made heavy enough so that the movement does not occur too quickly.

Instead of allowing the breech block to move back, it would be quite possible to attach the stock and al the frame-work of the gun firmly to the breech block and then allow the barrel to move forward when the gun is fired instead of allowing the breech block to move back. Several automatic pistols, notably the Schwarzlose, have been constructed on this principle.

In 1917 an inventor appeared at Springfield Armory with a machine gun made to fire the Krag army cartridge, having the framework of the gun solidly fixed and the barrel loosely mounted so that it could move forward against the action of a spring when the gun was fired. This gun operated, but it was necessary to grease the cartridge case to prevent the front part of the case, expanded by the pressure, from sticking to the barrel as it moved forward.


One trouble with this system is that it greatly accentuates the recoil. The normal tendency of the explosion in the cartridge case is to push the bullet in one direction and the cartridge and breech block in the other. When there is no provision for locking the breech block to the barrel but instead it is attached to the framework and stock of the gun, and the barrel left loose, it is obvious that the explosion drives not only the breech block but the stock to which it is attached back against the shooter’s shoulder with a considerable amount of violence.

This inventor had besides his machine gun, a semiautomatic shoulder rifle built on this principle, though the mechanism was only crudely worked out. He demonstrated this gun by firing a number of shots with it and then allowed the Armory officials to fire it. I fired one or two shots with it and the kick was so terrific that I felt as though a mule had landed on of his hind feet on my shoulder. I seemed to be kicked back two or three feet from where I was standing and tears actually ran out of my eyes from the blow, which marvel as to how the inventor, who was a frail, pathetic looking man, managed to shoot it without any signs of discomfort. After showing his model he returned to a nearby factory to complete the mechanism but a few days later we were distressed to learn that he had taken his new gun and deliberately blown his head off with it. Probably the kick was too much for him after all.
 
Thank you kindly for the time spent researching and posting this information.
I had thought that a wax coating had dual purpose, that of easing extraction and decreasing obturation was the method that achieved that result. I didn't correlate friction reduction into that assumption.
For my purposes of keeping the brass as reasonably close to the sloppy chamber size, Im not certain that lubing the cartridge would accomplish that, now knowing what the intended purpose of the lube is for and how its done. Keeping that brass similar in size is going to be the key to legnthing the life span of the cases. Short of an expensive custom die I may just be relegated to fire form, necksize and occasionally, a partial ' full legnth ' resize leaving the shoulders as un molested as possible. Low pressure loads and cast bullets, I do that currently, and it's no new thing.
Ah hell I may just ram the case full of 3FG and fire it like the case was originally designed.
I'm not quite done yet, but don't want to reinvent the wheel either. Thanks again
 
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