.308 30-06 historical question

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Hey everyone this is my first post and I figured this might be as good as a place to ask this question. For the sake of argument lets use a 165 grain round for both the 30-06 and the .308, same rifle lets go with the 1903. I don't care to get another thread going considering accuracy, guess there have been quite a few in the past. Was there any difference in the ammo loads from WWII and today as far as the punch to the charge? I know both modern rounds the 30-06 has more velocity and lbs/ft but does the modern .308 bear more similarities to the velocity and power to the WWII 30-06 or did the change just have to do to the weight difference while still allowing for some stopping power? WWII history is a hobby for me, I know a great deal of the wars' history and quite a bit on the weapons however I have heard something that the ammo loads were a little different compared to todays but haven't found any concrete answers, hope to find them here.
 
The cartridge as originally designed was the 1903 and used a 220 gr FMJ bullet at 2300 fps. It was improved by adding .07" to its lenght and a new spitzer bullet was added at 2700 fps and renamed theBall Cartridge Caliber .30 model 1906. The present day cartridge is this one. The round was again updated in 1939 to the M-2 Ball cartridge with a 152gr bullet at 2805 fps. Today the std commercial load for the `06 is a 150 gr bullet at 2910 fps.

I believe the 308 was developed in 1954 as the T-65 in an attempt to duplicate the older cartridges preformance in a shorter cartridge. Later renamed the 7.62x52 NATO. The newer powders coming on the scene allowed this to happen and the 308 as it is known in its civilian form gives a 150 gr bullet the same 2800 fps as the old 152 gr 06 loading. Today the advent of still more advanced powders allow both to be loaded by the factory in "heavy mag" loadings for a gain of another 100 or so fps. All of these loads were of the same pressures in each cartridge as they were originally designed to run at. The 308 though is a slightly higher pressure round - 52,000 CUP vs 50,000 CUP.

Hope this answers what you wanted to know...
 
The Following are Quotes From Wikipedia regarding the two rounds,
30-06
"The .30-06 Springfield cartridge (pronounced "thirty aught six") is a .308 inch (7.82 mm)(.300 inch is 7.62mm) caliber rifle round, also known as the 7.62x63mm, introduced to the United States Army in 1906 (hence "-06") and standardized, with use continuing into the 1960s, tapering off in the 1960s and early 1970s.

It was developed from and superseded the nearly identical .30-03, having a slightly shorter casing and a higher velocity spitzer bullet. There were three main production runs of the round, that roughly correspond to large stocks built up during wars: the initial .30-06, the M1 Ball, and the M2 Ball.

The M1903 Springfield rifle, introduced alongside the earlier cartridge, was quickly modified to accept the .30-06. It replaced the 6 mm Lee Navy as well as remaining older calibers such as the .30 US Army (also called .30-40 Krag) used in the Model 1892 Krag. The .30-06 remained the US Army's main cartridge for nearly 50 years before it was finally replaced by the 7.62 x 51 mm (7.62mm NATO, commercial .308 Winchester) with the adoption of the M14 in 1954. However, the first M14s were not fielded until 1957, and the .30-06 remained in service into the 1970s, mainly as a machine gun cartridge.

It was used in the bolt-action M1903 Springfield and M1917 Enfield, the semi-automatic M1 Garand, the Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR), and numerous machine guns. It served the United States in both World Wars and in the Korean War, its last major use being in Vietnam. Large volumes of surplus brass made it the basis for dozens of commercial and wildcat cartridges, as well as being extensively used for reloading. The .30-06's power, combined with the ready availability of surplus firearms chambered for it, and so demand for commercial ammunition, has made it a popular hunting round. It is suitable for large mammals such as deer, elk, and moose."

.308
"NATO's 7.62x51mm rifle cartridge, commercially known as .308 Winchester, was introduced in the 1950s as a standard firearm cartridge among NATO countries, though it has also become popular among civilians. The round is produced by many manufacturers in types that include tracers and blanks.

The military 7.62x51mm cartridge is nearly identical to the commercial .308 Winchester. NATO controls specifications for the military round while SAAMI controls specifications for the civilian round. The organizations have established two differences: the standard pressure is 50,000 psi for most military rounds, while the SAAMI maximum is 62,000 psi for the civilian round. The NATO M60 High Pressure Test round is loaded to a pressure of 67,500 psi, so military arms should be capable of handling the pressure of civilian rounds[1]. The military chamber is specified to be 1.645 inches, compared to the civilian chamber of 1.632 inches. Though this difference is just 0.013 inches,[2] a chamber of acceptable military length will put excessive stress on the thinner civilian brass, causing premature head separation. While it is not unsafe to mix .308 and 7.62x51mm ammunition, fewer problems will be encountered if the correct caliber designation is used.

The cartridge was introduced to military service in rifles and machine guns. It was used in the M14 Rifle and M60 Machine gun in U.S. service in the late 1950s. Fabrique Nationale's FAL became the most popular 7.62 NATO rifle in Europe and served into the early 1980s. The M14 was superseded in U.S. service as the infantry adopted a new round with the M16. However, the M14 and many other firearms that use the round remain in service. The round is used by infantry and from ground vehicles, aircraft and ships. It is used in the GE M134 Minigun as well."
 
There was a lot of 165-168 grain USGI .30-06 ammunition, the M2 AP round. By late WW II, the inclination was to shoot AP for nearly every occasion. They even used some of it for post-war target shooting because in selected good lots it was more accurate than lead core ball; until match ammunition got back in production.

The original goal of the .308/7.62 was to equal the performance of the 150 gr .30-06 round in a shorter cartridge for more efficient automatic weapons, with some weight savings for humping ammo and in critical materials for manufacture.

The Wiki entry perpetuates a misunderstanding, that commercial .308 Winchester is loaded to substantially higher pressure than military 7.62 NATO. Not the case, the Mil-spec for 50,000 psi is still based on testing in a crusher gauge barrel, but the Army has not adopted the SAAMI terminology of CUP, and calibrates their crushers in psi. But they do not use a piezeo transducer like most commercial manufacturers do, so the values are not really comparable. Ol' Joe has it right 52,000 vs 50,000, which is no difference at all, individual cartridges out of the same box can vary that much.
 
flyingbullseye said:
does the modern .308 bear more similarities to the velocity and power to the WWII 30-06 or did the change just have to do to the weight difference while still allowing for some stopping power?
Your question is a bit convoluted so I'm not real sure what you're asking. As other have pointed out, the .308 Winchester is the civilian market version of the 7.62x51 NATO. The 7.62x51 NATO was developed in the 1950s. The intent was to make a cartridge that equalled the .30-06 in performance, but was shorter overall. It was made possible by advances in powder technology in the 50 years between the development of the .30-06 and the 7.62x51 NATO.

In military loadings, the 7.62x51 NATO and .30-06 are so close in performance as to be identical for practical purposes. The 7.62x51 NATO is just shorter, allowing for more compact and lighter rifles.

The .308 Winchester, while based on the 7.62x51 NATO, operates at higher pressure. It is not the same round.

Commercial loadings of the .30-06 may be "more powerful" both because modern powders in the larger case allow for greater velocities, and because the .30-06 is often loaded with much heavier bullets (up to 200 grains). You can do that in a strong modern bolt action rifle. U.S. Military loads for the .30-06 did not use such heavy bullets, however.

Finally, keep in mind that the 7.62x51 NATO is not the standard infantry round anymore, and hasn't been since Vietnam. It is still used, but in special applications like light machine guns, snipers and designated marksman roles. The average grunt carries a M16 or M4 chambered in 5.56x45 NATO, aka .223 Remington (in its civillian version). There is no question that the .30-06 and 7.62x51 NATO are MUCH more powerful than the 5.56x45 NATO.
 
FYI

From Cartridges of the World (3rd edition - about 1972)

Cartridge, caliber .30 Ball M2
Bullet: 152-3gr
Velocity: 2740 +/- 30 ft/sec at 78 feet
Pressure: 50,000 psi, max. avg.
Accuracy: 7.5" mean radius max. avg. at 600 yards

This is "standard" GI Ball .30-06

Cartridge, 7.62mm NATO Ball M80
Bullet: 149-3gr
Velocity: 2750+/- 30 ft/sec at 78 feet
Pressure: 50,000 psi max. avg.
Accuracy: carton or clip pack 5" mean radius max avg at 600 yards
Link pack 7.5" mean radius max avg at 600 yards.

This is 7.62mm Nato (7.62x51mm/.308 Winchester)

These are the military specs of the day. Except for the one accuracy spec on 7.62mm, they are virtually the same.

For comparison, the same source lists commercial ammo:
.30-06 150gr velocity:
2970fps (Rem/Win/Fed)
.308 Win 150gr velocity:
2860fps (Rem/Win/Fed)

Hope this helps.
 
Quoted from The Ninety-Nine by Douglas P. Murray


"The .300 Savage

A shortened version of the .30-06, the .300 Savage was developed specifically for the model 99 in 1920..........In the early 1950's the .300 Savage round was modified by the Army to develope the 7.62mm NATO cartridge design. In 1952 it was introduced to the civilian market as the .308 Winchester, and in 1954 was adopted by the Army as the 7.62 NATO round."
 
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