Kachok
Member
Long range shooting is a great skill to have, being able to stalk within 75 yards of your game is an even greater skill to have.
308 Bullet for Elk
- Thread starter tikka-guy
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1stmarine
Member
Kachok,
I agree, marksmanship is just one of many aspects of hunting. If you can get so close that you can kill it with your knife, that is a true hunter! LOL!
Cheers,
E.
I agree, marksmanship is just one of many aspects of hunting. If you can get so close that you can kill it with your knife, that is a true hunter! LOL!
Cheers,
E.
ZeroJunk
Member
I don't know that skill is all of it. I have spent most of the time over the past almost 30 years bow hunting for elk. And, I have been within 50 to 100 yards of several nice herd bulls. I was within 10 yards of one, and 30 to 40 of several more. But, things change when rifle season starts. Anybody who thinks that sometimes 400 to 500 yards isn't the best you are going to get if you get anything at all has never done that much of it. It's not so much that you can't get there without being detected, it's that you can't get there at all in any reasonable time to expect the elk to still be in the same neighborhood. A couple of years ago I closed 1000 yards on one and killed him at about 100 yards. Luck was on my side as far as the terrain went. Not always that way. If I can't get within 300 yards at the most I'll just wait until next year. But, a man that can shoot well at 400 to 500 yards is welcome to take the shot as far as I'm concerned.
I think that I am going to buy a Kimber 84M Montana in 308 to take this year. Only weighs 5 1/2 pounds or so. I'm tired of hauling around a 10 pound rifle. If nothing chages my mind I will be shooting 165 grain Partitions. They have always worked for me in the past. It would be a really weird circumstance where you could tell the 165's from the 180's in the dead elk. IMO anyway.
I think that I am going to buy a Kimber 84M Montana in 308 to take this year. Only weighs 5 1/2 pounds or so. I'm tired of hauling around a 10 pound rifle. If nothing chages my mind I will be shooting 165 grain Partitions. They have always worked for me in the past. It would be a really weird circumstance where you could tell the 165's from the 180's in the dead elk. IMO anyway.
1stmarine
Member
ZeroJunk,
You are 100% right, things change when the rifle folks come out. Things also changed a lot everywhere in the last 15-20 years. I personally like the solitude and hunt now mostly in private land ore remote areas whatever the price. I cannot take it mixing a unique experience with some of the goons we find out there. I could do it but I don't. It is unfortunate as there are many still around with deep passion, dedication and respect for the mother nature and the land and probably just a few that ruing the experience and the well earned reputation of true hunters.
I have had big game on my sights w/o a doubt that that animal had to come down and had the animal look at me and had to let it go. I could see in my head that animal dropping but sometimes the moment was so beautiful that I though why to ruin this with a hunt that is so easy.
I would never preach long range as something cool like some are portraying right now. Instead we have to approach with the most respect, considering our true capabilities and treat the land and the animals as a gift from god, that is what they are. There is no much to a 500-600 yards shot, anyone with an accurate system and give that they get proper training can eventually do it. Getting within 10-20 feet of a wild beast, that is a different story.
My next hunt I want to go after a big bear in Alaska and after talking to some experienced folks over there I have decided to do it close if I can with my 16" Saiga .308 or my 45/70 lever action both open sights and leave the long guns at home. That would make it more fulfilling for me I think.
I am planning .308 TSX as they never failed me not even once but I think the partitions will give the same or similar results. I have used them too in the past with great results. And I know there are other good bullets out there. I am testing the ballistics of some new e-tips right now and Hornady as well. Equipment these days, not only meets but exceeds the needs in most of the situations expected by the average American hunter.
Cheers,
E.
You are 100% right, things change when the rifle folks come out. Things also changed a lot everywhere in the last 15-20 years. I personally like the solitude and hunt now mostly in private land ore remote areas whatever the price. I cannot take it mixing a unique experience with some of the goons we find out there. I could do it but I don't. It is unfortunate as there are many still around with deep passion, dedication and respect for the mother nature and the land and probably just a few that ruing the experience and the well earned reputation of true hunters.
I have had big game on my sights w/o a doubt that that animal had to come down and had the animal look at me and had to let it go. I could see in my head that animal dropping but sometimes the moment was so beautiful that I though why to ruin this with a hunt that is so easy.
I would never preach long range as something cool like some are portraying right now. Instead we have to approach with the most respect, considering our true capabilities and treat the land and the animals as a gift from god, that is what they are. There is no much to a 500-600 yards shot, anyone with an accurate system and give that they get proper training can eventually do it. Getting within 10-20 feet of a wild beast, that is a different story.
My next hunt I want to go after a big bear in Alaska and after talking to some experienced folks over there I have decided to do it close if I can with my 16" Saiga .308 or my 45/70 lever action both open sights and leave the long guns at home. That would make it more fulfilling for me I think.
I am planning .308 TSX as they never failed me not even once but I think the partitions will give the same or similar results. I have used them too in the past with great results. And I know there are other good bullets out there. I am testing the ballistics of some new e-tips right now and Hornady as well. Equipment these days, not only meets but exceeds the needs in most of the situations expected by the average American hunter.
Cheers,
E.
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2003
- Messages
- 13,341
Make sure and take lots of pictures. That will be a fantastic experience no matter what the weapon choice. If you want a big bear give Phil Shoemaker a call he's the go to guy for a big trophy brown bear.
http://www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com
T.R.
Member
I've taken many elk with my .308 carbine. Longest shot was approx 225 yards or so. None got away. Plan to shoot twice into the chest organs for a quick kill. I've had excellent luck with plain 180 grain soft tip ammo by FEDERAL. But Premium bullets should not be ignored.
Don't make the mistake made by nearly every new elk hunter: shoot once and watch open mouthed as the animal gallops away. Doesn't matter if a magnum rifle is used, either. Elk are tough. Plan to shoot twice or more quickly to put the animal down. That's an advantage of hunting with .308 rifle: the recoil is moderate so you can cycle the action and get a second or third shot off quickly and accurately.
Good hunting to you.
TR
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Vern Humphrey
Member
The problem is too many men who can't shoot well at 100 yards are willing to take 500 yard shots.
GooseGestapo
Member
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2003
- Messages
- 6,154
I'm going to buck the trend here.
Since you're already using a 150gr bullet, stick with the 150gr.
Use the Nosler 150gr Partition.
My younger brother lives in Nevada and is able to hunt there, Colorado, and Utah as it's just a few hours down the interstate to places he has access to.
He's used his pre-'64 Winchester M70 "Feather-weight" in .308 sucessfully many times. He's taken pronghorn antelope, mule deer, elk, white-tails, even feral pigs.
He uses one load; a handload of H4895 in Winchester cases, Federal 210 primers, and The Nosler 150gr Partition. It chrono's 2,900fps so he's not "handicaped" by not using a '06....
He's yet to recover a bullet!
But, he IS a "HUNTER", not a "shooter". I've watched him from a distance stalk a fork-horn white tail. It took him 30min to cover less than 100yds. His shot was from 40yds! He could have shot from 150, but he wanted to "see how close he could get".
He also hunts with a muzzle-loader. But, within 300yds any elk is in grave danger..... He won't shoot beyond 300yds. He has the capability to shoot "miles" living in Nevada. He says the wind is just to un-certain beyond 300yds, so "why bother" is his answer.
You probably won't even have to change your zero if you stick with the 150gr Nosler Partition. The difference in the penetration between a 150 and 180 is perhaps 2-3" at most.
Personnaly, I use a bigger bullet..... a 200gr or 210 from a .338/06 or .338Marlin Express. But, I'm more a "shooter" than a hunter. But, I do "Shoot" a lot of game.
I'm headed back to Wyoming. Haven't heard the results from the Antelope and Mule deer draws, but I did get a State-wide "Any" Elk tag.........
FWIW: my best friend used my Rem. M7 in 7mm08 in '05 to take a beautiful 6x6 bull in Colorado. He did shoot it 4 times, but three 140gr Nosler Partitons completely penetrated the heart/lungs and exited with golf-ball size holes. The 4th shot was a Sierra 140gr "Pro-hunter", flat-base soft-point. He wasn't supposed to use it, but he did break both shoulder's and bullet stayed just under the hide on the off-side. (ammo shoots the same as the Nosler- they were for practice and checking zero...) The guide was skeptacle of him using such a "small" gun. After seeing the results, tried to buy the rifle off of him!
Stick with what you have and use it with confidence. BTW, a well placed SST will do the job, but might not penetrate sufficiently on a less than optimum shot placement. Hence, my reason for using the Partiton's.
They just work..........
Since you're already using a 150gr bullet, stick with the 150gr.
Use the Nosler 150gr Partition.
My younger brother lives in Nevada and is able to hunt there, Colorado, and Utah as it's just a few hours down the interstate to places he has access to.
He's used his pre-'64 Winchester M70 "Feather-weight" in .308 sucessfully many times. He's taken pronghorn antelope, mule deer, elk, white-tails, even feral pigs.
He uses one load; a handload of H4895 in Winchester cases, Federal 210 primers, and The Nosler 150gr Partition. It chrono's 2,900fps so he's not "handicaped" by not using a '06....
He's yet to recover a bullet!
But, he IS a "HUNTER", not a "shooter". I've watched him from a distance stalk a fork-horn white tail. It took him 30min to cover less than 100yds. His shot was from 40yds! He could have shot from 150, but he wanted to "see how close he could get".
He also hunts with a muzzle-loader. But, within 300yds any elk is in grave danger..... He won't shoot beyond 300yds. He has the capability to shoot "miles" living in Nevada. He says the wind is just to un-certain beyond 300yds, so "why bother" is his answer.
You probably won't even have to change your zero if you stick with the 150gr Nosler Partition. The difference in the penetration between a 150 and 180 is perhaps 2-3" at most.
Personnaly, I use a bigger bullet..... a 200gr or 210 from a .338/06 or .338Marlin Express. But, I'm more a "shooter" than a hunter. But, I do "Shoot" a lot of game.
I'm headed back to Wyoming. Haven't heard the results from the Antelope and Mule deer draws, but I did get a State-wide "Any" Elk tag.........
FWIW: my best friend used my Rem. M7 in 7mm08 in '05 to take a beautiful 6x6 bull in Colorado. He did shoot it 4 times, but three 140gr Nosler Partitons completely penetrated the heart/lungs and exited with golf-ball size holes. The 4th shot was a Sierra 140gr "Pro-hunter", flat-base soft-point. He wasn't supposed to use it, but he did break both shoulder's and bullet stayed just under the hide on the off-side. (ammo shoots the same as the Nosler- they were for practice and checking zero...) The guide was skeptacle of him using such a "small" gun. After seeing the results, tried to buy the rifle off of him!
Stick with what you have and use it with confidence. BTW, a well placed SST will do the job, but might not penetrate sufficiently on a less than optimum shot placement. Hence, my reason for using the Partiton's.
They just work..........
tikka-guy
Member
I stopped by a couple of shops today. The first was a local store. I told the guy working that I was going out for elk later this year, and wanted to get something a little more solid for my .308. We discussed ammo a little bit, but they didn't have anything I was really looking for. He seemed less concerned about bullet construction and more concerned with bullet weight and velocity. He showed me a box of Federal Fusion in 180 gr. I don't know much of anything about the bullets on the Fusion ammo, so I said no thanks, and that I'd have to look into them a little more. Really nice guy, but he did try selling me a new rifle while I was there.. first a .257 Mag and then a .30-06. I don't think either would give a whole lot more performance than my .308 at any reasonable distance.
I was out of town later this evening and was near a Gander Mtn, so I thought I'd stop by there to see what they offered. I found some Federals loaded with a 165 gr Barnes TSX, so I picked up a box of those (holy $$$!). They also had the 180 gr Fusions there. I looked a little closer at the box, and noticed the muzzle velocity on the Fusions was slightly higher than the 165 gr Barnes. I also noticed that the jacket is "fused"... not really sure what that means and how that compares to a bonded core, but they were relatively cheap so I figured what the heck, I'll grab a box and do the bullet research later.
So I have a couple of boxes for shooting tomorrow, so we'll see how things go. Two questions though:
I was hoping to find the tipped TSX bullets. The physics behind expansion with a polymer tip makes sense to me. A regular TSX, not so much. Is there a big advantage to the tipped version? Any reason to bend over backwards to find those rather than the regular TSXs?
What about that Fusion bullet? Can anyone compare the construction against some other bullets? Is it comparable to a SST or will it hold together a little better? I figured, at the very least, I have another box that would be suitable for whitetail (and some more brass!)
Thanks!
I was out of town later this evening and was near a Gander Mtn, so I thought I'd stop by there to see what they offered. I found some Federals loaded with a 165 gr Barnes TSX, so I picked up a box of those (holy $$$!). They also had the 180 gr Fusions there. I looked a little closer at the box, and noticed the muzzle velocity on the Fusions was slightly higher than the 165 gr Barnes. I also noticed that the jacket is "fused"... not really sure what that means and how that compares to a bonded core, but they were relatively cheap so I figured what the heck, I'll grab a box and do the bullet research later.
So I have a couple of boxes for shooting tomorrow, so we'll see how things go. Two questions though:
I was hoping to find the tipped TSX bullets. The physics behind expansion with a polymer tip makes sense to me. A regular TSX, not so much. Is there a big advantage to the tipped version? Any reason to bend over backwards to find those rather than the regular TSXs?
What about that Fusion bullet? Can anyone compare the construction against some other bullets? Is it comparable to a SST or will it hold together a little better? I figured, at the very least, I have another box that would be suitable for whitetail (and some more brass!)
Thanks!
tikka-guy
Member
As a side note, what the heck formula is Federal using to calculate energy? I'm no physicist, but the only formula for energy I know is energy=mv^2. So then, make sense of this. Here are the numbers printed on their boxes for 300 yards:
180 gr Fusion, 2130 fps, 1400 ft-lbs of energy
165 gr Barnes, 1990 fps, 1455 ft-lbs of energy
So how can the Barnes (slower & lighter) have more energy than the Fusion (faster & heavier)... ?
EDIT: I took a look at Fusion's online velocity and energy charts for the 180 gr load. They don't match what's printed on the box at all. What's printed on the box is the velocity of the 165 gr Fusion load. The energies printed for muzzle, 100 yd, and 200 yd are the energies for their 165 gr load. The energy printed for 300 yd is the 400 yd energy of the 165 gr load, and the energy printed for 400 yd is the energy of their 165 gr load at 500 yd. I don't know what it is they're doing over there, but they should stop letting Brock Lesnar fill in the ballistics information.
180 gr Fusion, 2130 fps, 1400 ft-lbs of energy
165 gr Barnes, 1990 fps, 1455 ft-lbs of energy
So how can the Barnes (slower & lighter) have more energy than the Fusion (faster & heavier)... ?
EDIT: I took a look at Fusion's online velocity and energy charts for the 180 gr load. They don't match what's printed on the box at all. What's printed on the box is the velocity of the 165 gr Fusion load. The energies printed for muzzle, 100 yd, and 200 yd are the energies for their 165 gr load. The energy printed for 300 yd is the 400 yd energy of the 165 gr load, and the energy printed for 400 yd is the energy of their 165 gr load at 500 yd. I don't know what it is they're doing over there, but they should stop letting Brock Lesnar fill in the ballistics information.
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Kachok
Member
It's the same formula that the TKO guys use. Don't expect it to make sence in the real world 
1stmarine
Member
High the TSX and TTSX work the same that is by hydrostatic pressure. They peel back in one piece "Always" (consistency) and then the four petals like razor blades spinning very fast is like running high power drill on the animal all the way through. They cannot stand the shock, they simply twitch or buck once or twice and roll over.
The advantage of the new Tipped ones is that has a higher ballistic coefficient and the tip starts the expansion but the principal is the same, Copper solid bullets that stay in one piece through flush and bone and work as above. The TSX is a classic that has been very reliable and are widely used world wide not just in the US but very popular Australia, Europe and African Safaris for all sort of game. No matter what grain or caliber the TSX/TTSX design is devastating.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV8ij1gK-ck
The fusion is a way to use shorter bullets and still maintain the integrity of the bullet by creating a fusion where the jacket is bonded to the lead core using electrochemical gilding methods. These bullets have a perfect center of gravity and low BC and are specially designed for deer. They also stay together as soon as they do not hit heavy bone/game so they are ideal for a softer game like deer.
Cheers,
E.
The advantage of the new Tipped ones is that has a higher ballistic coefficient and the tip starts the expansion but the principal is the same, Copper solid bullets that stay in one piece through flush and bone and work as above. The TSX is a classic that has been very reliable and are widely used world wide not just in the US but very popular Australia, Europe and African Safaris for all sort of game. No matter what grain or caliber the TSX/TTSX design is devastating.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV8ij1gK-ck
The fusion is a way to use shorter bullets and still maintain the integrity of the bullet by creating a fusion where the jacket is bonded to the lead core using electrochemical gilding methods. These bullets have a perfect center of gravity and low BC and are specially designed for deer. They also stay together as soon as they do not hit heavy bone/game so they are ideal for a softer game like deer.
Cheers,
E.
tikka-guy
Member
Thanks for the info... looking at their site, "whitetail" and "deer" is all over the place. And I've run across that quite a bit in my Googling the past few minutes.
Looks like I have another box of ammo for this deer season
1stmarine
Member
No prob. I also put a couple of pics of two .308win loads with the TSX in post nr 12.... http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7251877&postcount=12
Kachok
Member
Bullet construction has nothing to do with KE, just weight and speed counts there. There are scientific formulas for such things. TSX bullets are amazing. I plan on developing some handloads for them this year. Mind you my BTs and SSTs perform fine, but the TSX promises to be just as lethal with less meat damage. There seems to be a great deal of truth to their blade design. It does not really cut as much as it focuses then energy to stretch tissue beyond it's ability to bouce back thus creating a wounderful tearing effect that extends outward almost as far as bullet fragmentation while retaining nearly 100% of it's weight and driving much deeper.
TSX bullets have really improved the performance of high speed, small caliber lighter bullets more then anything. 80gr 243s were OK on deer in the past, now they are stone cold killers with full penetration being the rule rather then the exception. The differnece for heavier slower bullets seems to be less dramatic since penatration never has been much of an issue for them, but the "spiral of death" is still noticable and very effective. TSX and Accubond are my #1 recomendations for anything tougher or larger then mulies.
TSX bullets have really improved the performance of high speed, small caliber lighter bullets more then anything. 80gr 243s were OK on deer in the past, now they are stone cold killers with full penetration being the rule rather then the exception. The differnece for heavier slower bullets seems to be less dramatic since penatration never has been much of an issue for them, but the "spiral of death" is still noticable and very effective. TSX and Accubond are my #1 recomendations for anything tougher or larger then mulies.
tikka-guy
Member
Good stuff. I don't think I've read a single bad thing about the TSXs. If my rifle likes them then I think my search is over.
My understanding is the non-lead bullets are a bit longer than their leaded counterparts. Any issues with case capacity on your TSX 180s?
My understanding is the non-lead bullets are a bit longer than their leaded counterparts. Any issues with case capacity on your TSX 180s?
1stmarine
Member
They have to be longer. They are copper only but no issues. Might loose a little of speed but then they have a very good Ballistic coefficient so they can start slower and end up faster.
Because they are so good you can even drop a caliber and/or grain w/o loosing effectiveness.
I also hunt with the .223 75gr and 6mm 85 grain TSX and deer drop like hit by lightning so imagine a 168gr in .308! They are expensive for a reason but in the end are cheap as you only need one.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=750318
Here they are too in the line up....
If you reload, find out about the OAL that your rifle allows and you can seat a little longer w/o pressing against the lands. Leave at least 0.010 margin. Also can use the first or second groove as cannelure. I use a very light factory LEE crimp in all my hunting bullets for both the bolt and AR. Make sure you visually careful inspect each load and cycle them through the action before the hunt. Safety on first please.
There are other great bullets out there but this is a classic and a must. Now I am testing Nosler E-tip (Solid) and Swift Sirocco II for ballistics.
Cheers,
E.
Because they are so good you can even drop a caliber and/or grain w/o loosing effectiveness.
I also hunt with the .223 75gr and 6mm 85 grain TSX and deer drop like hit by lightning so imagine a 168gr in .308! They are expensive for a reason but in the end are cheap as you only need one.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=750318
Here they are too in the line up....
If you reload, find out about the OAL that your rifle allows and you can seat a little longer w/o pressing against the lands. Leave at least 0.010 margin. Also can use the first or second groove as cannelure. I use a very light factory LEE crimp in all my hunting bullets for both the bolt and AR. Make sure you visually careful inspect each load and cycle them through the action before the hunt. Safety on first please.
There are other great bullets out there but this is a classic and a must. Now I am testing Nosler E-tip (Solid) and Swift Sirocco II for ballistics.
Cheers,
E.
Cob
Member
I've asked this question before,
but what difference is there between a 7.62 x 54r, & a .308?
the bullet diameter is the same, the bullets are about the same weight in grains.(7.62 x 54 bullet ranges from 150 - 218 grains)
7.62x54 uses a rimmed cartidge, and is reportedly more powerful than a .308, which is rimless. the bullets appear to be similiar in size.
I had thought of using this cartridge for elk at one time, had decided to use the .270, but this thread has gotten me re-thinking a bit.
Forgive me for taking this thread in a different direction, but it's been nagging me a bit.
but what difference is there between a 7.62 x 54r, & a .308?
the bullet diameter is the same, the bullets are about the same weight in grains.(7.62 x 54 bullet ranges from 150 - 218 grains)
7.62x54 uses a rimmed cartidge, and is reportedly more powerful than a .308, which is rimless. the bullets appear to be similiar in size.
I had thought of using this cartridge for elk at one time, had decided to use the .270, but this thread has gotten me re-thinking a bit.
Forgive me for taking this thread in a different direction, but it's been nagging me a bit.
1stmarine
Member
No problem. I like this thread.
The .308Winchester is virtually the same as the 7.62x51 which is the official NATO round.
The 7.62x54r is the .308win of the communist world during the cold war.
The 7.62x54r is a tad longer and rimmed but virtually very similar. The problem is that the 7.62x54r in military version is mostly metal cases and metal core whereas the7.62x51(.308win) is brass with a huge array of possibilities and widely available brass. The 7.62x54r is not more powerful, it is actually a lower pressure case, so the .308 win can be also pumped up and loaded with 180gr and even 210gr loads but like the russian then it is not going to be very flat shooting.
I am not a 7.62x54r expert but the .308win I shot a lot in the service and then as a veteran for almost 30 years and I can assure you it is a very reliable/consistent round. It is standard issue in NATO and here to stay for a long time. Very forgiving for re loaders and is cheaper than the 7.62x54r if you reload. Also the options of high quality modern rifles is amazing. Probably the biggest assortment of options and very popular around the world where is legal. Where is not legal the people use the cartridges based in the same case that is the .243 winchester, 7mm.08 that are also huge world wide along with the 30.06. The .338 federal is also based on the .308Win case and there are also great factory loadings in 6.5mm and other calibers based on the same case. Same thing applies to .30.06. The reason they are popular and they have been proven through the years.
Those loads are manufactured here and will never be sortages of loads and brass. The others, we do not know what the future will bring.
If it was me, based on the selection on the .308 caliber department I would keep it simple with a nice .308 winchester or .30.06. It might be popular and thefore not exciting and neck turners but get the job done well and better than many other cool offerings. Everyone should have one of those if not both.
Keep it simple.
Also when extra punch is needed look at the speed and energy of these new loads. They don't tell but you need long barrels as they are slow burning. I was playing with some of this new ball powder today and I need to go longer. In any case more than plenty for anything here in America.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/61119-5.html
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/72028-1.html
These will cover 99% of the situations of the average American hunter.
More speed, more grain than 168, 180... totally unnecessary.
Cheers,
E.
The .308Winchester is virtually the same as the 7.62x51 which is the official NATO round.
The 7.62x54r is the .308win of the communist world during the cold war.
The 7.62x54r is a tad longer and rimmed but virtually very similar. The problem is that the 7.62x54r in military version is mostly metal cases and metal core whereas the7.62x51(.308win) is brass with a huge array of possibilities and widely available brass. The 7.62x54r is not more powerful, it is actually a lower pressure case, so the .308 win can be also pumped up and loaded with 180gr and even 210gr loads but like the russian then it is not going to be very flat shooting.
I am not a 7.62x54r expert but the .308win I shot a lot in the service and then as a veteran for almost 30 years and I can assure you it is a very reliable/consistent round. It is standard issue in NATO and here to stay for a long time. Very forgiving for re loaders and is cheaper than the 7.62x54r if you reload. Also the options of high quality modern rifles is amazing. Probably the biggest assortment of options and very popular around the world where is legal. Where is not legal the people use the cartridges based in the same case that is the .243 winchester, 7mm.08 that are also huge world wide along with the 30.06. The .338 federal is also based on the .308Win case and there are also great factory loadings in 6.5mm and other calibers based on the same case. Same thing applies to .30.06. The reason they are popular and they have been proven through the years.
Those loads are manufactured here and will never be sortages of loads and brass. The others, we do not know what the future will bring.
If it was me, based on the selection on the .308 caliber department I would keep it simple with a nice .308 winchester or .30.06. It might be popular and thefore not exciting and neck turners but get the job done well and better than many other cool offerings. Everyone should have one of those if not both.
Keep it simple.
Also when extra punch is needed look at the speed and energy of these new loads. They don't tell but you need long barrels as they are slow burning. I was playing with some of this new ball powder today and I need to go longer. In any case more than plenty for anything here in America.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/61119-5.html
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/72028-1.html
These will cover 99% of the situations of the average American hunter.
More speed, more grain than 168, 180... totally unnecessary.
Cheers,
E.
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ZeroJunk
Member
Good info in this thread. I had tried the Barnes original X bullets but found they did not open sometimes on deer and left about the same size exit as entrance. I take it the new versions have solved that. I'll give them another try.
Kachok
Member
One other key difference. Our 7.62 mesures out to aprox .308" while the Russian 7.62 has an aprox .311" bore. Close but still require differnent bullets for handloading. The British 303 Enfield has the same bore as the Russian.
1stmarine
Member
Kachok,
Good point. The .308 will run in the russian bore but then you loose performance, that is what some reloaders do but more to play with exotic rifles like the mossin or dragunovs that can be bought dirt cheap and are nice for collectors. The dragunov is actually a very accurate and reliable rifle with even surplus loads but less than politically correct and might be ilegal for hunting with it in America. If one likes an autoloader that is reliable then get a saiga in .308win. Even the engineers in the russian AK plant of Izmash have attributed the accuracy to the western ammunition and acknowledged the accuracy improvements in their AK based systems that are super reliable to the NATO loads. .233Rem and .308win.
The other thing is that the russian loads are metal and berdan primed so they cannot be reloaded. Many that are brass from Europe are also berdan and only a small marginal amount are brass and boxer primer, not cheaper than the .308 that is less expensive to reload and the .308 probably the biggest bullet department with many options from varmint, deer, military, and match and big game hunting.
Cheers,
E.
Good point. The .308 will run in the russian bore but then you loose performance, that is what some reloaders do but more to play with exotic rifles like the mossin or dragunovs that can be bought dirt cheap and are nice for collectors. The dragunov is actually a very accurate and reliable rifle with even surplus loads but less than politically correct and might be ilegal for hunting with it in America. If one likes an autoloader that is reliable then get a saiga in .308win. Even the engineers in the russian AK plant of Izmash have attributed the accuracy to the western ammunition and acknowledged the accuracy improvements in their AK based systems that are super reliable to the NATO loads. .233Rem and .308win.
The other thing is that the russian loads are metal and berdan primed so they cannot be reloaded. Many that are brass from Europe are also berdan and only a small marginal amount are brass and boxer primer, not cheaper than the .308 that is less expensive to reload and the .308 probably the biggest bullet department with many options from varmint, deer, military, and match and big game hunting.
Cheers,
E.
tikka-guy
Member
I don't own any, but aren't 7.62x54r-chambered rifles generally on the heavy side? It's something worth thinking about when you're talking about going hunting with it.
1stmarine
Member
Hi,
yes they are on the heavy side. MAny they are relics from the 1940's.
And Dragunovs are also collectors stuff these days. I am also a collector of AK based systems myself but not the really old stuff.
Cheers,
E.
yes they are on the heavy side. MAny they are relics from the 1940's.
And Dragunovs are also collectors stuff these days. I am also a collector of AK based systems myself but not the really old stuff.
Cheers,
E.
Kachok
Member
There is nothing the 7.62x54 will do that a 30-06 will not. The American .30 cal also enjoys a larger selection of bullets, and a greater selection of rifles. While the Russian rifles are OK I feel that an American made rifle in 30-06 is better in every mesurable way. That said I would never dream of trading my Finnish made 6.5x55 for either one of them The 6.5x55 has been dropping trophy elk and moose long before the newfangle 30-06 or 30-30 was ever dreamed up. Despite being 120 years old it still enjoys amongst the best downrange ballistics/accuracy of any rifle caliber. BC and SD are out of this world. My 140gr hunting bullet has a .612 BC!!
The 6.5x55 has been dropping trophy elk and moose long before the newfangle 30-06 or 30-30 was ever dreamed up. Despite being 120 years old it still enjoys amongst the best downrange ballistics/accuracy of any rifle caliber. BC and SD are out of this world. My 140gr hunting bullet has a .612 BC!!- Status
