.308 Defensive/SHTF Ammo Choice

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444

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Let's say that you only own one firearm and there is no possible way you could obtain another one. So, this ONE rifle has to do it all. Anything that needs done with a firearm, will have to be done with this rifle. Hunting, personal defense, SHTF, whatever.
Let's say that you handload for this rifle, so you can have any load you want or need but you are trying to choose one particular load (commercial or handload) that will work to some extent for anything you want to do with this rifle. This is the ammo you would grab if you had to bug out. This is the ammo you would leave loaded in the rifle to handle whatever came up. This is the ammo that you want to stock up on for just whatever comes down the pike. This is the ammo the rifle is going to be zeroed with. Obviously, like any general purpose tool, it won't be the absolute best for any one thing, but it will suffice under most conditions for anything.
What might that ammo be for a .308 rifle.
Please justify you answer. Posts such as "I use the Remingtons they sell at WalMart and I love em" don't add anything to the discussion.

I recently aquired an FR8 rifle. I have been thinking about leaving it in one of my vehicles as a general purpose rifle. It seems like it might be a good choice in that role. I was mulling around what ammo I should carry with it and thought I would throw it out to the floor for discussion. Obviously, this is an iron sighted rifle.

The reason I presented the above senario where you couldn't have any other firearm is because in every thread like this, several people will waste bandwidth by saying they would use a shotgun, or they would use a handgun or whatever. Note that I never asked what firearm you would use. That isn't the topic of this thread and those answers are not welcome here. Others will want to discuss over penetration for defensive use. Again, the rifle is chambered in .308 and that is the only rifle/cartridge we are discussing here. If you are worried about over penetration, we will attempt to solve that issue with our choice of bullets: not a different gun.
 
Isn't much that 46gr of Varget under a Sierra ProHunter 150gr won't fix. Not too frangible, not too hard - just right for most stuff.
 
I was thinking that something in the 150 grain class would be the obvious choice. The NATO load is something like 150 or 147 or something like that. I don't have any experience with ballistic tips or hollowpoints or anything like that in a .30 rifle, but that might be the best thing you could do about the penetration issue. Obviously, a soft point would be the way to go for hunting, or a partition. But this might not be the best for defensive purposes.
 
Any .308 is going to ruin someone's day, even AP. But if I had to choose one .308 for urban or SHTF use, it would like be Hornady's new TAP 110 gr. load. The tests and numbers I've seen show that it is very high velocity for ..308 and fragments nicely while limited the chance of extreme overpenetration in an urban setting. But then again, maybe it's the clever marketing of the tactical black case with the painted tip and all the Law Enforcement hype of the round.
 
Since I am mostly interested (right now) in this FR8, I don't know how adjustable the sights are (I haven't shot it yet). I am not sure if I can even shoot stuff like 110 grain bullets. I have other .308 rifles: FAL, M1A, HK. But, I am mostly thinking about this FR8: just because it is new.
 
The Sierra ProHunters are actually pretty thin-skinned, and open up faster than you might expect. Not quite TAP, but closer to VMAX than AMAX.
 
I'd use a poodleshooter. ;)

Just kidding. But since this is early in the thread, I'll toss out the obvious answer for the obvious reasons: I would use the 147gr NATO load that is on the surplus market, currently from South Africa. Here is why:

-Cost: maybe not a consideration for some, but it is for me. If you're in a situation where you can't acquire another firearm, it is probably going to be just as hard to acquire more ammo, which means you want it stocked. Its a lot easier for me monetarily to keep a case(s) of surplus x51 in the closet than it is to keep the higher dollar stuff sitting around in quantity.

-Construction of the ammo: Each round is "durable". Sealant on the case mouth and primer make it less water permeable than commercial loads. It is well crimped. Being of military orgin, it was generally built and packaged to survive in a range of unforseeable conditions, and I assume that is the overall goal here.

-Bullet: of course the medium weight FMJ isn't best at any one thing, but it *can* be used for pretty much anything you might want to use it for, and it is combat accurate out to what, 600+ yards?

Given one .308 load for the rest of my life, I think I'd take the milsurp every time. But thats just me.
 
Milsurp ammo just doesn't seem to be the ticket in my mind. Although you make a good case for it: I thank you for developing your point. I think we can do better if we explore all of our options.
It zips right through the target: it doesn't expand or fragment making it maginal for game or man. It will work, but not nearly as well as something else in a civilian bullet. As a civilian, I am probably not shooting at armored vehicles or armored men.
I agree that military ammo is built to withstand the worst possible conditions, but that appears to be it's only real strong point.

I am currently sitting on 8000 rounds of surplus 7.62 NATO. In fact, I have something like 500-1000 milsurp cases that have been resized/deprimed, primer pocket crimp removed, primer pockets uniformed, flash hole deburred, and cases trimmed that I am probably going to use for this project. Buy a box of good bullets every pay day and you are on your way.
 
I Have To Concur, with a couple of exceptions

ny32182 said:
I'd use a poodleshooter. ;)

Just kidding. But since this is early in the thread, I'll toss out the obvious answer for the obvious reasons: I would use the 147gr NATO load that is on the surplus market, currently from South Africa. Here is why:

-Cost: maybe not a consideration for some, but it is for me. If you're in a situation where you can't acquire another firearm, it is probably going to be just as hard to acquire more ammo, which means you want it stocked. Its a lot easier for me monetarily to keep a case(s) of surplus x51 in the closet than it is to keep the higher dollar stuff sitting around in quantity.

-Construction of the ammo: Each round is "durable". Sealant on the case mouth and primer make it less water permeable than commercial loads. It is well crimped. Being of military orgin, it was generally built and packaged to survive in a range of unforseeable conditions, and I assume that is the overall goal here.

-Bullet: of course the medium weight FMJ isn't best at any one thing, but it *can* be used for pretty much anything you might want to use it for, and it is combat accurate out to what, 600+ yards?

Given one .308 load for the rest of my life, I think I'd take the milsurp every time. But thats just me.

I own a .308. I love 'em. But hey, while this is true, you can have problems with overpenetration, and milsurp isn't the most accurate ammo ever. I'd keep a couple hundred rounds of Federal match, and a couple hundred rounds of AP, and a couple hundred rounds of the Hornady TAP for urban defense when I didn't want to have the ammo go through my house [hope it doesn't go through walls] (a situation maybe like multiple home invaders)

Have fun. A good car rifle is a must (but I keep an SKS for that)
 
Nosler Partition bullet; quick expansion, and deep penetration, and good performance against a variety of materials and mediums. It should be suitable for almost any big game animal, or other task that might arise.

Federal 180 grain Nosler Partition load.
----------------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedtstates.org
 
+1 for The Hornaday Tap! and +1 for the nosler partitions they are both awesome, ahhhhhhhh!!! It's to hard, to decide!:)
 
Thanks for the replies, however we are getting off track a little bit. Remember, I am looking for ONE bullet and ONE load to try and do it all. I am not going to carry six different types of ammo.
I don't think something like a 180 grain Partition would be a good choice for home defense or urban self defense: I shot a cow elk with two 180 grain Nosler Partitions out of a .30-06 and both bullets went right through both sides of the animal. While this was a good choice of bullet for hunting an animal on the large side of the scale of North American game animals, I don't think that would be the best all around .308 bullet.
In my mind, the ammo for a rifle like this would probably be geared more toward defensive use and game sized deer or smaller. If you needed to take something like an elk, you still could probably do it, but going with a heavy bullet designed for deep penetration is going to far the other way.

Now I realize this is probably all Walter Mitty stuff, but I think it is fun to discuss anyway. IMO, if you had all kinds of different loads for all kinds of different situations, you would never have the right ammo in the gun when the situation arouse. And, I seriously doubt you are going to be able to switch ammo when you need it. We are trying to come up with ONE load as a result.
 
Remember, I am looking for ONE bullet and ONE load to try and do it all.
But you already know the choices - TAP/VMax (fast-n-frangible) or one of the various forms of large game hunting bullets. In my experiences, the Sierra ProHunter 150gr is about as soft a bullet as you're going to get without going to a TAP/110gr VMax type of load.

About the only other choice if you really want something that opens up fast (to the point of fragmentation) but still had some weight to it would be a round-nose 150gr designed for 30-30 velocities. That would open up REAL FAST and likely fragment at 308 velocities.....
 
Barring milsurp (and I agree with your assessment of its shortcomings), and considering your last post, I would be looking for a lighter weight controlled expansion type bullet maybe in the 110gr range. I imagine such a bullet would yield decent penetration as well as good, quick expansion. Unfortunately I'm not a reloader, and therefore can't name a specific brand/bullet that meets the criteria. :(
 
Lawrenceof said:
is that you are unaware of, or biased against the advantages of having many caliber upper receiver-barrel groups for the AR-15. The main thing we need, for shtf, training, varmint control, teaching others is a .22lr, which your 308 can't offer. The AR-15 offers a .22lr dedicated upper, or just the .22 conversion unit for use in the 223 upper. Less than 1% of the population has any need at all of taking animals larger than deer. The 223 softpoint takes deer every bit as good as the 30-30 ever did. That is, it does so as long as you are not stupid enough to take a rear end or shoulder shot.

444 owns more AR-15's, and has forgotten more AR-15 info than most people will ever know. As he stated, this is a specific question about a brand new rifle that he just bought... he's got the AR-15 arena covered, trust me.

In his defense, and respectfully..
 
444,

I'm afraid that only YOU can provide the answer to your own question. Every rifle is different, and although I could give you my best load for my FN SPR, chances are it would not be the best in your rifle. The only thing I would suggest is, since this FR8 is liable to have, let's say a "generous" chamber, I would lay up with some mil spec brass that will hold up to more than a couple reloadings. I would also lay up some of the soon-to-be-gone surplus IMR4895 powder that can be bought for $10 per pound. I'm afraid there's no shortcut to actual load testing with your particular rifle.

Don
 
How about a 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip loaded to about 2400 - 2500 fps? This would seem to have a few things in its favor:
  • Expands rapidly
  • Reduced recoil at this MV
  • Less overpenetration than ball
  • Lower chamber pressure theoretically helps extraction

Personally, I'd also carry a few clips of Ball, just in case you DO need the penetration.
 
Lawrenceof

or his entire post is pointless
Leaving a $800-$1500 AR behind the seat of your truck as a knock-around rifle isn't in the cards for some folks - too easy to get stolen or confiscated. In that case, a less expensive 'truck gun' is useful. I believe that's what 444 is contemplating with his FR8.

Welcome to the High Road... I'd recommend staying a while, and getting to know the folks here a bit before jumping on them too hard. Most folks here are pretty good and actually fairly knowledgable.
 
Kobus

130gr GS Custom bullet (South-African manufactured) handloaded to 3200ft/s. It has a BC of .430 and shoot as flat as a 7mm Rem, is monolitc and act as a flat nose (exelent stopping power) if it hits its target at close range. It expands like a Barnes TSX at lower impact speed.
 
Why not just go with the far more relevant, $150 sks for a truck gun?
Perhaps because 444 desires something in 308 instead of 7.62x39? But that's besides the point - the man asked a question, and rather than answering it you're casting aspersions at the question. That's not helpful, that's not what this forum is all about, and that's not The High Road as I know it.

I would suggest that you either contribute to the thread by actually answering the question asked, or find somewhere else to be.
 
444:

Lots of good points made above. I'm no expert on bullet design and terminal ballistics. I will point out that: (1) when dealing with the .308 round, you have a lot of margin for error; and (2) the Hornady TAP products have excellent reputations, and have worked well for me, so that's what I would choose as a do-it-all load.

On the first point, a big advantage of the .308 is that it packs a lot of punch compared to the typical alternatives (.223, 7.62 Russian, etc.). It can be expected to deliver reliable stops on man and deer-sized targets even with poor (FMJ military ball) bullets. Lack of penetration is not going to be an issue. I wouldn't hesitate to use milsurp 7.62 NATO if that was all I had available. I've got almost as much milsurp as you, in fact, though mine is a mix of Belgian, Portuguese, Argentine, South African and U.S. (Lake City). Asking for the absolute "best" load in this context is like trying to decide whether you should take a Porsche 911 Turbo, Ferrari 360 or Lambo Gallardo on the commute to work. Any one of them will get you there in blazing speed and style.

On the second point, I have tried a lot of different loads in my SA58 and PTR-91, from the aforementioned milsurps (including M118LR) to various commercial "match" loadings using premium BTHP bullets. I've also tried the Hornady TAP loads in the 110, 155 and 168 grain varieties. I've found the Hornady loads to be exceptionally accurate and reliable -- almost as accurate (and in some cases more accurate) than such stalwarts as Federal Gold Medal Match BTHP. My FAL likes the 110 TAP, and my PTR-91 (with an early polygonal rifled barrel) prefers the 168 TAP. As the TAP loads are reported to have excellent terminal performance, I keep a couple of mags of each as my "just in case" loads.

I may rethink that based on the comment from someone above pointing out that milsurp is typically well sealed against moisture, and so may have better reliability in harsh conditions. Given that almost any load should do the trick, reliability would seem to me to be the most important criterion.

Lawrenceof:

I can see that you feel strongly about your views. That's fine; many of us do, too. May I suggest, however, that you show a little respect for the poster. He made clear that he has a specific question, and preferred that his thread not be cluttered up with a lot of irrelevant posts. If you want to engage in a debate about whether he is asking the right question, it would be best to do so in private messages to him, or in another thread that you start.

Thanks, and welcome to The High Road.
 
I like the initial direction of the thread. Too bad some folks are a little narrow- minded. There are plenty of calibers to go around.

Welcome to THR, and try to be polite as you disagree. :)

444, how about the 'ol Remington Soft Point (I've forgotten the typical gr. amount) over about 40 grains of surplus IMR4895? That'd do the trick for just about all.

Nothing fancy, but it has worked for probably 40 years.
 
I've done this for .30-30 instead of the .308 (my .308 is an M1a and I don't wanna deal with odd loads in it).

Try a 100-130gr RN, FP or hollowpoint bullet over about 10gr of Unique. Muzzle velocity is about 1700-1800fps depending on bullet weight. This gives decent effectiveness to about 200-300 yards, but limits over penetration due to the light weight and broad bullet face.

Hornady makes a good 100gr RN half-jacket that is inexpensive. Sierra's 110gr Varminter HP would be good for this too. Or the .30-30 construction 125-130gr hollowpoints or flatpoints.

As always, beware any load data on the internet.
 
Keep going through all the cheap generic 150gr. soft points until you find the brand your rifle likes best.

Should come closer to what you seem to be looking for than anything else.

For a dedicated people shooter I would think 155gr. AMAX for the terminal effects, or either 168gr. SMK or a 155gr. Palma match (Sierra) for accuracy, whichever works better out of your rifle.

Since I suspect your rifle will be more accurate with weights around 150gr. for large game there are any number of premium loads available, and they all seem to do very well.

But for one round that does a lot, I think some generic 150gr. soft point will do better than anything else I can think of.

As for specific brand, have fun shooting them all, and tell us all about it later!:D
 
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