.308 shopping

[HJ857]

Yeah, I'll throw in for the FNAR as well. Despite it looking utterly different than an AR, it feels remarkably similar. I bet if I were blindfolded and someone put either rifles in my shoulder, I couldn't tell you which was which. Up until you pull the trigger. The FNAR stock trigger is on the heavy side though a clean break, but it can be modified, or you can ship the trigger off to someone that does it and that costs about 60 bucks.

ACE does make a buttstock adapter that can be either fixed or side folding and you can put pretty much any AR or AK stock on it. However they've been out of stock for a long time. Mags are just as bad right now.

I was messing with a DPMS earlier today and I don't think there was much difference between it and my fluted heavy barrel FNAR.

If you have a long length of pull and mount a scope well aft then the scope can hinder your access to the charging handle of an AR (to some degree). The FNAR is a side charger and will never be blocked by a scope.

Mine is definitely sub MOA with 180 grain Game Kings.

Breakdown is more complex than an AR, but I wouldn't call it difficult by any means. The worst part of it is that so much time passes between the times you should break it down that you forget how to do it and have to look it up all over again.

 

[Thompson9494]

FNAR question

Do any versions of the FNAR come stock with iron sights? Even though mounting a scope is on the list of considerations I don't want that to be at the cost of having no iron sights.


"Unless you have your heart set on a lookalike battle rifle for historical/aesthetic/personal reasons, military service..."

While I do prefer a military pattern rifle, I'm not going to discount a non-military battle rifle solely for the reason of having little or no military usage. The FNAR is close enough to what I'm looking for (standard capacity detachable magazines, pistol grip, stock or easily found accessory rails, etc) that I'll add it to the list of considerations.

 

[HJ857]

No, none of the FNARs come with irons at all. Not sure about the SX versions.

The FN version comes with a scope mount rail, a rail on the bottom of the forend and two side rails, all of which can be removed. I put a Nikon M-308 scope on mine, which comes with a 20MOA mount. Works really well.

It also comes with three stock comb inserts of different heights, three butt pads of different thicknesses and three spacers that change the angle of the buttstock in relation to the receiver.

While the FNAR isn't truly battle proven, the action descends from something that really is.

 

[henschman]

One that has hit the shelves since your original post that you should definitely take a look at is the S&W M&P10. It is their version of a .308 AR. It has some excellent features; most particularly the 18" light profile melonite treated barrel. The rifle is very light and handy. The price is good... around $1400 generally, maybe less if you shop. Accuracy reports have been very good.

I recently completed a .308 AR battle rifle build based on a DPMS LR-308 Oracle. I swapped out the barrel, handguard, stock assembly, and gas block, and came up with this:


I like it a lot... but if the M&P 10 had been widely available when I started the project, I would have considered starting with it instead of the DPMS. It would have cost about the same in the end, but I REALLY like the barrel on that M&P.

 

[Thompson9494]

PTR ammo

Seeing as the PTR-91 and the FAL are currently my two top contenders I'm going to ask if anyone has anything negative to say about the PTR-91 as far as reliability is concerned. I've read enough reviews on the FAL that I believe it to be a top notch rifle but I've read conflicting reviews on the PTR, some say their rifle functions with out hiccup with every type of bullet they've tried and others say that jams with tons of popular or common rounds. Please note, I'm not into reloading as of now so the PTR mangling casings or launching them into the wilderness isn't a concern.
Thanks.

PS, I like your AR-10, henschman! What kinda scope you got mounted on there?

 

[henschman]

Thanks! It's not an AR-10 though... it is DPMS pattern. The scope is a Burris TAC30, which I highly recommend.

 

[barnbwt]

Though iron sights could be mounted to the rails, or even replace them, it would make little sense. The gun is a longer range arm, more akin to a PSG-1 than a G3, more a Dragonov than an AK (or SVT-40). The long stock and thick barrel don't make it very maneuverable for action games or home defense, to say nothing of the unnecessary power of the 308 round at such ranges. And the 1MOA accuracy potential will be wasted if it is topped with a sight intended for quick acquisition to 4MOA. It's definitely not a carbine, and is overbuilt for a DMR role, too. It's a fixed-position-sniping-lots-of-hogs-at-once-from-a-blind gun

"While the FNAR isn't truly battle proven, the action descends from something that really is."

In the interest of full disclosure, the FNAR is adapted from the Browning BAR, which is not the 1919 Browning Automatic Rifle we also call the BAR. I'm not sure if the former ever came from military origins (it has a bolt-head with interrupted threads closer to the Ross straight-pull bolt rifle, and a short stroke gas action --unlike the long stroke 1919). In any case, Bubba-Fudds have drug enough BAR sporting rifles through mud/rain with success to validate the action sufficiently IMO.

"Seeing as the PTR-91 and the FAL are currently my two top contenders I'm going to ask if anyone has anything negative to say about the PTR-91 as far as reliability is concerned."
The delayed blowback operation of the PTR relies more on delicate timing to function safely. Therefore, its operation is non-adjustable, unlike many offerings (I forget if the FNAR has an internal gas adjustment or not, but as a short-stroke piston design, it has slightly less need for one). That lack of adjustment, while attuned for a certain range of loads, is limiting or even dangerous outside them. What the PTR has going for it is the ultimate in simplicity; a two-piece bolt body and a receiver--that's it. No tubes to clean, no delicate lockwork, no mercy . When put together right, it will be as consistent as anything. Consistency in all things is the key with blowbacks.

If you have not owned a 308-class semiauto rifle before, you will rapidly find you can save a ton of money or shoot much more if you get into reloading. 308 is extremely easy and forgiving, and its parts are (normally) readily available,

If you want to be the only kid on the block with one, the Keltec RFB is an option. There are also still some 308 Garands to be had, and for the more exotic and discriminating palette (and more monied), might I suggest the Argentine Navy FN49 or Beretta BM59 as well made rifles matching your requirements

*Oh yeah, the G3 variants have notoriously scummy triggers, no doubt helped by the massive amount of soot all over the place. No auto-loading rifle outside a 3000$ custom job will have an awesome trigger, but I can attest to the FN49 and FNAR triggers as being "pretty good". Also, I think some, if not all, the G3 variants have a goofy push-button mag release that people spend boucoup bucks replacing with a paddle

TCB

 

[yzguy87]

Thought I would add my 2 cents!

My experience with semi auto 308's has been with DPMS and RRA. I started with a DPMS lr-308. I switched the upper after about a year for a Tac-20 upper. Sold it got an AP4. Sold it got RRA Predator. I really liked my Preator. RRA's trigger is sweet. Accuracy was great and there wasn't anything I didn't like about it. I would have kept it forever but a thief decided he needed it more than I did. All the rifles I had were good IMO but the RRA was my keeper. Hopefully I'll have another one day.
Fwiw this is my opinion based on my experience.

Keep us updated on what you get. Pics are great too

 

[TexasPatriot.308]

as an old grunt, to me the M1A is a helluva combat rifle. I love my Armalite AR10s too, from experience I know the .308 provides so much more. my next one will be a Scout Squad with walnut stock as soon as I can find one.

 

[arizona_cards_11]

I was asking this question a few months ago. I decided to go with an LRB/USGI M14 with an 18.5" Krieger Medium barrel.

 

[HJ857]

the FNAR is adapted from the Browning BAR, which is not the 1919 Browning Automatic Rifle we also call the BAR

Barnbwt, thanks for the clarification. My info was pretty much opposite of that, though I have no recollection of how I got that impression. In any case, I stand corrected.

 

[barnbwt]

I swear the difference is something stupid like Browning Autoloading Rifle vs. Browning Automatic Rifle . I really wish they would fix this point of unnecessary confusion, but it probably drives sales or something.

Properly named, it would make a better case for convincing them to start making 1919's again, though

TCB

 

[fireside44]

Seeing as the PTR-91 and the FAL are currently my two top contenders I'm going to ask if anyone has anything negative to say about the PTR-91 as far as reliability is concerned. I've read enough reviews on the FAL that I believe it to be a top notch rifle but I've read conflicting reviews on the PTR, some say their rifle functions with out hiccup with every type of bullet they've tried and others say that jams with tons of popular or common rounds. Please note, I'm not into reloading as of now so the PTR mangling casings or launching them into the wilderness isn't a concern.

A few things:

1) I would definitely choose the FAL of those two. IMO it is simply the finer rifle.

2) Many report negative experiences with steel cased ammo in the FAL. There have been many reports of kabooms yet others have had no trouble so it's hotly debated among some of those guys.

3) Therefore, your ammo costs will be high should you decide to go with the above warning and only use brass case ammo. You do not reload, so consider ammo cost is currently .70 cents a round for brass cased. I myself have too much into the gun to risk using steel so I've never tried it.

As for the PTR, I've never heard anyone complain about steel cased ammo in one of those. Steel case .308 is much cheaper. To be honest, if I did it again I'd just get a VEPR .308 and add a few accessories I liked and shoot cheap steel case it would've been much more practical at my income level. But if you got the money, go for a FAL.

 

[Reloadron]

Over the years I had quite a bit of experience shooting the FAL and given a choice between a FAL or PTR I would opt for the FAL. However, in all fairness my experience with the PTR was limited.

Overall as to my own choice? I went with and like my Armalite AR10T. Simply worked for me in what I wanted from a rifle. I also own and very much enjoy a SA M1A NM.



I went with the AR10 mainly because it fit my needs/wants at the time. I guess I have had it about 15 years now. You need to make a decision based on your wants and needs in a rifle.



I can always revery back to regular iron sights or scope the rifle easily if the need to change configuration trips my trigger.



Today good ammunition in 308 runs about a buck a round and real good factory stuff like Federal Gold Medal runs about a buck and a half a round. My experience has been rolling my own loads gets the best results in either the M1A or the AR10. The same is likely true of a FAL or PTR rifle, so depends on how accurate you want.

I also still have my original shorter barrel for the AR10 if I ever want to go back.

The fact that I happen to like the AR10 means absolutely nothing other than it worked for me at the time. It would be nice if you could beg or borrow a few flavors to take out and shoot to help you make a better decision as to what works for you.

Just My Take....
Ron

 

[Motega]

I have a DSA SA58- it's a fine rifle out to 300 yards, easy to clean, and easy to get parts for. I would go on FALfiles forums and see what's around, DSA is great but there is the wait and I found out the hard way that a new FAL needs a lot longer to break in than some other rifles- it actually does better with a little non-corrosive "schmutz" in the gas system IMO. I fire lapped mine with ammo made for the purpose and find it VERY accurate, I don't have a range farther than 300 yards but at that distance with an ACOG I can hit a pie plate every time, and usually much better.

You said that the only contenders are 7.62's or .308's I think- I assume you have something in .223 already? I like the FAL the best, but consider the .223 indispensable because it's much easier to teach non-shooters how to control safely and accurately and ammo/parts are even more common and cheaper.

Anyway my vote is for a FAL!

 

[Thompson9494]

"The gun (FN FNAR) is a longer range arm, more akin to a PSG-1 than a G3, more a Dragonov than an AK (or SVT-40).
But the Dragunov actually comes with iron sights! (sorry dude, I had to!)"

"The delayed blowback operation of the PTR relies more on delicate timing to function safely. Therefore, its operation is non-adjustable, unlike many offerings (I forget if the FNAR has an internal gas adjustment or not, but as a short-stroke piston design, it has slightly less need for one). That lack of adjustment, while attuned for a certain range of loads, is limiting or even dangerous outside them. What the PTR has going for it is the ultimate in simplicity; a two-piece bolt body and a receiver--that's it. No tubes to clean, no delicate lockwork, no mercy . When put together right, it will be as consistent as anything. Consistency in all things is the key with blowbacks."

The simplicity of the PTR-91 was one of things that got me really interested in the rifle. I'm a lazy teenager so simpler is better!!

"You said that the only contenders are 7.62's or .308's I think- I assume you have something in .223 already? I like the FAL the best, but consider the .223 indispensable because it's much easier to teach non-shooters how to control safely and accurately and ammo/parts are even more common and cheaper."

I've got a SIG 556 that I need to start shooting more often, I've only put around 50 rounds through it in the time I've had it.

Thanks for everyone's replies so far, y'all have got some beautiful rifles!

 

[barnbwt]

"But the Dragunov actually comes with iron sights!"
Well so do ARs, but why do people insist on changing them out anyway? Yeah, that's kind of a cop-out, but would you really want whatever iron sights FNH would choose to slap on that thing (I'm not sure if they'd be like hunting sights, or a tacticool ghost ring thing, or what --but I'm sure a scope or reflex would replace them )

"As for the PTR, I've never heard anyone complain about steel cased ammo in one of those"
Seeing as the PTR is a delayed blowback, and the FAL a true locked breech, it is illogical that steel case would rupture in the later before the former. Kabooms happen when the bolt opens under pressure. The FAL is gas operated, so the gas is the only thing opening the breech, and the case material has zero impact on that figure. People blow up FALs because their gas port is cranked up to full blast for no reason and the breech is blown open prematurely. After seeing how much a PTR allows cases to stretch, I'd never use anything less ductile than brass in one, and I'd never reload them, either (yes, people get away with steel cases, and reloading, and reloading steel cases, but it isn't "wise" if you understand the mechanics of the action and material properties).

"The simplicity of the PTR-91 was one of things that got me really interested in the rifle. I'm a lazy teenager so simpler is better!!"
You should build a 308 VG1-5 Gustloff Volkssturmgewehr (gas delay) since it has one moving part in the bolt operation but is still delayed

"I've got a SIG 556"
Well, there's your answer, get a STGW57 in 7.5 Swiss --it is too a 308 caliber

Alright, fine, they make 308WIN barrels for them too, if you must go with NATO

Be sure to let us know what you end up running with!

TCB

 

[fragout]

I was asking this question a few months ago. I decided to go with an LRB/USGI M14 with an 18.5" Krieger Medium barrel.

The above quote from Arizona Cards.
============================================================================================

My next semiautomatic rifle chambered in 308 will be an LRB Arms M25, along with the extended 20MOA rail (Sadlak).

Will most likely go with the Criterion 18.5 std contour chrome lined bbl, as I have had the same bbl on another M14 and am very satisfied with it so far.



1. LRB bolt with GI inards and chrome firing pin.
2. GI trigger group with Sadlak mag release. ( SEI Maxx pax plus at later time)
3. SEI rear sight assembly
4. GI op-rod
5. SEI gas cylinder
6. Black nitride gas piston
7. SEI Vortex direct connect flash hider
8. SEI gas lock front sight ( DT-18)
9. SEI Tritium front sight
10. GI synthetic stock with Kydex adjustable comb.
11. Fulton Armory handguard w/clip
12. Rest of parts = GI M14 to include the sling.

Notes:

Will shim gas cylinder, and modify the stock a bit to my specific specifications.( Fill in selector lever hole, re-enforce forestock internally, NM mods to front ferrel, and use an M1 Garand buttplate in place of the M14 flip up design.)

Havent made a decision as to what optic I want to use for it however. I'm looking at the Nikon M308 right now, but not sure how this optic would hold up over time. Also looking at a few different Leupolds to boot.