308 Winchester Blue Dot Loads

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Grumulkin

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You won't find these loads in any manual so use at your own risk.

For the second from the top group, I purposely held 1 mil left.

At 14 grains of Blue Dot there is still no sign of high pressure. I'm thinking I'll probably be able to go up 3 or 4 grains. Some day I'll get the chronograph out to see how fast they're going.
 
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Some folks have been using Blue Dot in .223 for some time.

I tried it in .22 Hornet many years ago, but what was safe powder back was not safe powder forward. Have you tried this both ways yet?
 
"...You won't find these loads in any manual..." Nope, but my old Lyman book has Red and Green Dot(#8 & 17 on the BR chart, respectively.) loads for cast bullets. Both of which are a lot faster burning than Blue Dot(#50 on the BR chart). None of 'em used with any jacketed bullet though.
 
Cool. But don't count on pressure signs. The 'normal' pressure signs we observe are based on 'normal' powder characteristics. You aren't using a normal powder, and not positioning it in the case volume normally. By the time you get pressure signs, you might already be taxing the gun, the brass, and the bullet. Just be smart and go slowly. Don't guess, don't draw conclusions prematurely.

We don't use QuickLoad to determine load data, but it's handy for comparison. I ran Blue Dot in your application. It certainly isn't linear. Maybe you can try a few more grains at most, but don't push it. You already have an accurate load.


Using handgun powder to reload rifle cartridges (especially with cast bullets) was very common 100 years ago for hunting. Handgun powders were easily purchased and there were several choices. But rifle powders were more scarce. And casting lead bullets was still a common skill. Published manuals up to 1960 had lots of loads, even the NRA listed them, but today only a few list handgun powder for rifle cartridges. Hodgdon still has some. Alliant had it for 2400 but I see it's mostly gone.



One thing they learned 100 years ago, soft point jacketed bullets can leave the jacket in the bore with handgun powders, the lead core leaves the barrel by itself and often hits the target. As we see in the QuickLoad model, pressure peaks high within a few inches of the chamber but then drops to about 200psi at the muzzle. With such low pressure, friction captures the jacket while inertia of the lead core continues its path. FMJ doesn't have that problem. That's why load data like Lyman usually addresses lead bullets. Alliant and Hodgdon only FMJ.

For instance, go to Hodgdon online data, click on Rifle, drop the menu down to 223 Remington, click on 55 grain bullet. You'll see Clays, Titegroup and Trail Boss listed. But when you open the data for those three powders, only FMJ is listed. Given the completely covered nose, it can't lose its jacket.


Have fun but keep sane.
 
I got to play with Blue Dot loads a little more today and I actually got the chronograph out.

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No signs of excess pressure. If I don't count the flyer (LOL) it was a 0.052 inch group.

d1use88.jpg

Still no signs of high pressure but from here on, I'll probably increase by 0.5 grains at a time. Now, if I can exclude one flyer, what should prevent me from excluding two of them?

I suspect one could work up loads with Titegroup, Red Dot, Green Dot, etc. for a variety of bottle necked cases but I'm not going to make that my mission.
 
How does that charge fill the case? I get very leery of small charges in large cases and the possibility of position sensitivity rears its' ugly head as Walkalong was mentioning. I've used many 303 Brit and 308 Win using 'the load' of 13 grns Red Dot with cast bullets and no issues whatsoever, but this is a very light load that shows no positional sensitivy as far as I can tell. But....

A long time ago there was a fellow with an old Highwall in some obscure caliber (sorry...can't remember) that he'd loaded with very light charges for reasons that also escape my memory at the moment. Regardless, he was always very meticulous with his preparation and pre-shot routine where he elevated the muzzle to load then very slowly lowered it to the target before taking the shot.

Did this for many years, then one day let a friend shoot the rifle without explaining the need for keeping the powder to the rear of the case. This fellow loaded the rifle muzzle down, then raised it to the target....and on the shot the barrel blew out big time. Pretty dramatic stuff!

I believe if no documented data exists for a cartridge that there is some reason WHY. It could be extreme positional sensitivity and that's not something I'd want to find out about on my own. How one would go about testing the positional sensitivity safely is beyond my knowledge or experience and I only know to mention the possibility of catastrophe doing such things. Best of luck and safe shooting.:)
 
Well, Blue Dot like Titegroup isn't supposed to be position sensitive. I'll probably test that at some point.
 
Blue Dot was extremely position sensitive in .22 Hornet.

Titegroup is touted as being position insensitive, but in my limited testing it was average on the lost FPS numbers powder forward against the primer. It burns well either way, but loses velocity like most smokeless handgun powders do. There are many much worse, but it was nothing special. I bought it because it was supposed to be position insensitive.
 
I checked Loaddata.com for Blue Dot loads in .30 caliber rifles but there were none. Tried Herco, which is a little faster burning and found lots of loads, same for 2400, which burns a bit slower. It's a little difficult to extrapolate data because you're loading a jacketed bullet and all the data is with cast. I've found cast bullets to be VERY forgiving when charges that are too high are inadvertently used (don't ask how I know). That said, I wouldn't go to much higher.

What you're doing is interesting, but I see little purpose in jacking up the velocity as you're not going to come close approaching velocities that are achievable with rifle powders anyhow. Just enjoy the amazing accuracy you're getting!

I personally haven't run into problems with position sensitivity. For awhile I shot High Power on a reduced course (100yds.)with one of my Swiss K-31's and loaded 6.7 grs. of Bullseye under a little 155 gr. FP cast bullet out of an NEI mould. Super accurate load. 40 of the 80 shots of the competition course were rapid fire and the loaded cartridges were jostled around in strippers and loaded into the magazine from strippers. I took absolutely no care whatsoever in elevating the rifle's barrel at any time. Just load and shoot 5 rounds, then load and shoot another 5 rounds, all within 60 seconds. I later switched to a cast bullet made especially for K-31's and loaded 14.0 grs. of AA#7 under the 180 gr. cast bullet. This is an extremely fine grain powder with a burn rate similar to Blue Dot. Again, loaded the magazine from strippers, jostled and manhandled the cartridges with no problems at all and fantastic accuracy.

Hadn't shot cast out of rifles for several years, but last Sunday I got a wild hair and loaded some AA#7 under some 165 gr. cast bullets and shot a couple of 200 yd. groups. WOW!! I forgot how rewarding shooting cast bullets can be!

Keep those range reports coming.


35W
 
As I recall, several years ago, over on Accurate Reloading forum, there was a lot of (sometimes acrimonious) controversy over the use of Blue Dot in certain applications. I do not recall most of what I read back then but perhaps a visit to AR and a search might turn up some interesting information.
 
We had a fellow here shooting Blue Dot in varmint rifles. I don't remember which one or ones. Calibers that is. He loved it, said it didn't heat up the guns nearly as fast due to using so much less powder.
 
I have used Blue Dot in 308 Win. I use 16 gr of BD with a Nosler 125 gr BT and F-210 primers col 2.760"
The load density is about 45% The accuracy is under an 1" at a 100 yds from my Howa 1500. This BD load requires the scope to be re-zeroed as it prints about 6" low and 2" right or left at 100 yds.
I have not chronographed this load yet, I would guess 1,800-2,000 fps.
This load has worked well on rockchucks and coyotes, but since I have a 22 Hornet now I've been using that.
With this BD load I was surprised at how cool the barrel stays after multiple shots.
The biggest problem I see with BD in .308 Win. is the possibility of a double charge :eek:
 
The biggest problem I see with BD in .308 Win. is the possibility of a double charge :eek:

Since I generally weight all charges, that probably wouldn't happen.

I remember once while loading, a charge I threw was very light and the next very heavy. Apparently some powder hung up in the powder measure only to all come out in addition to the full charge with the next throw. That could be a real danger with a progressive press.
 
The biggest problem I see with BD in .308 Win. is the possibility of a double charge :eek:

Been there, done that.

About 10 years ago I was loading 12.0 grs. of Unique and a 205 gr. cast bullet (Lyman 314299)for one of my No.4's and somehow double charged five rounds. That'd be 24 grs. of Unique! Of course when I fired the first one I knew immediately something was amiss. Other than the bolt being difficult to open, there was no damage to the rifle whatsoever, and I continued to shoot it for another year or so until I sold it when I got into Swiss K-31's.

I learned to be VERY careful and develop a system of checks and have since loaded I'd guess a couple thousand when shooting reduced loads for High Power matches and never had another.

35W
 
I did some more shooting today. One question answered waa the powder forward versus back question. Since I can't shoot straight up or straight down at a target, for the powder forward shots the cartridge was held bullet down, gently brought to the horizontal and chambered and then shot (loaded one at a time). For the powder back, they were held bullet up before chambering. All 3 shot groups at 100 yards.

Powder forward:

Blue Dot charge: 16.0 grains
Group size: 0.818 inches.
Average velocity: 1,977 fps
Extreme spread: 29 fps

Powder back:

Blue Dot charge: 16.0 grains
Group size: 1.132 inches.
Average velocity: 2,068 fps
Extreme spread: 30 fps

So, I would conclude that Blue Dot is positional.

Also tested were increased loads of Blue Dot.

Grains Blue Dot: 17.0
Group size: 1.660 inches
Average velocity: 2,129 fps
Extreme spread: 68 fps

Pressure was still acceptable but the groups started to widen so 17.5 grains is probably near maximum and a further increase in the load won't give improved accuracy.

Grains Blue Dot: 17.5
Group size: 1.729 inches
Average velocity: 2,193 fps
Extreme spread: 48 fps

The cases used were military; commercial cases would probably take a bit more powder.
 
1977 PF & 2068 PB. Only 91 FPS difference. That's a very good spread. Very good indeed.

An increase to 17.0 Grs cut it to 64 FPS difference. Higher pressure usually cuts the difference in handgun calibers, so I am not surprised it did here as well.

Thanks for doing this. :)
 
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This is a fun thread. Have you folks tried using DACRON or PUFFLON on low volume loads to keep the powder charge from sloshing around? Is there any benefit in doing so?
 
I have never used a dacron filler for powders that burn as fast (all things being relative) as Blue Dot. That powder is on the ragged upper cusp of being insensitive to position. I start using dacron at the 4198 level and slower.
 
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