32 acp for self defense?

[OldSchooler]

This is how this discussion always goes. The belief is that if you have a powerful weapon, the battle is won in your favor. However, ask Goliath if it was of any benefit to him.

What matters most is your resoluteness. Men from Teddy Roosevelt to Dwight Eisenhower, from Massad Ayoob to, of course, David in his battle with the Giant, have noted this fact. The man who is resolute in the face of danger has the first and best weapon needed. He is usually always scared later. Some have, in fact, defined courage that way; "(sic) courage is the ability to put your fear aside until later, and to focus on the matter at hand."

While I am not a LEO or trained gunfighter, I have had the misfortune on more than one occasion to be on the wrong end of a gun with no defense of my own save my resolution to NOT be shot. My pissed off assailant(s) was put down and disarmed only because of that. Wisely, I have learned to busy myself in other pursuits these days, so as not to find myself in such compromising positions again. That is probably the best defense of all.

I DO NOT suggest you toss your gun in favor of a resolute attitude. I DO suggest you learn to rely on the gray stuff between your ears as your leading defense. Go take some martial arts/hand-to-hand combat training from someone who has "been there" and stay with it until you "cross the line."

What line am I talking about? The line between the fear of being hurt/losing and the resolution to win. Once you've crossed that threshold, then pick up your gun .

 

[gazpacho]

I carry the P32 in a Galco pocket holster almost all the time, usually as a BUG. It's the size and weight of a wallet, and fits accordingly. I don't have to dress around the gun.

32acp may not kill an agressor, but I bet I could take just about anyone in a fair fight after I put 8 rounds COM into them.

BTW, I carried at a pool party with my P32. Went swimming. A friend came up smiling and said, "I never thought I see you without a gun!" I just smiled.

 

[Byron Quick]

EMS called one night bringing me a GSW in the emergency room. We rushed around getting ready. Then the ambulance pulled up and the crew walked in with the patient also walking.

He'd been shot with a .32. It knocked out one of his front teeth and was found lying between his feet on the floor.

I got a P3AT for my BUG shortly thereafter.

I would carry a .32 if I had nothing better. But if I had to use it, I'd shoot till empty and then beat them in the head with the empty gun while I was getting my folder open.

 

[Chrontius]

Consider each seven-round magazine a .410 shotgun shell, delivered sequentially.

Don't forget that 99.9% of the time any handgun and a nasty smile are enough to win the day.

*grin*

 

[joneb]

The .380 acp or 9x18 Mak is as low as I would go, w/ FMJ's . As for the .32 ACP I rather have a .22 mag revolver.

 

[pseudo-fed]

Box of Truth Tested .32 ACP Performance in Water Jugs...

According to this, the .32 did better than a sharp stick!

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot26.htm

Later,

 

[FrogClan]

was wondering how the 32 acp stacks up with some of the other popular self defense rounds. ...but there is a pretty good deal on a kel tec 32 that im thinking about. I personally think that a 32 should be a decent self defense round as any bullet will do enough damage to take down an attacker. Prove me right or wrong.

The 32acp firing hollow point has a 63% chance of a one-shot stop. That compares favorably with the .380 firing Hydra-Shok (69%). *

I have a Kel-Tec 32. It is one of three guns in my "collection" (loose use of the term) that I would be willing to let go. That is saying a lot, as I'm one of those guys that hangs onto his guns forever.

What I like about it: it slips right in my pocket or inside my waist band (I have one of those little clips on the side of it). It is light. It is invisible. As another has mentioned (above), you can carry it while wearing next to nothing and it will still be concealed.

What I don't like about it: A fully-loaded magazine sometimes jams up... rimlock... the base lip of the top cartridge wedges in the groove of the cartridge below it, leading to absolute failure.... slide jammed open, won't be forced forward... have to remove mag, force round out, then stick mag back in pistol. It will sometimes stove pipe. If it were just a range gun, these issues wouldn't matter. But it is supposed to be an "I need it now!" gun, so they do matter. And lastly, I'm not sure the .32 is enough. If it was the only caliber that size gun came in, I wouldn't worry about it. But Kel-Tec makes the P3AT... only an eyelash bigger than the P32 but it comes in .380, and I've bought into the conventional wisdom that .380 is the minimum caliber for self defense. I've also read the loading problems of the P32 were solved in the design of the P3AT.

When I sell my P32, and if I decide I need another "pocket gun," I will replace it with the P3AT. Read about it here:

http://www.gunblast.com/KelTec_P3AT.htm


* Handgun Stopping Power by Marshall and Sanow

 

[TimboKhan]

well, for my 2 cents it boils down to this. I do not think the .32 is suitable as a primary defense gun. For one, there are better options for not much more money, especially if you buy used. For two, most of the .32's are tiny little guns that require a strong basis in the fundamentals of marksmanship to use with any hope of accuracy, let alone competence. However, if you think the .32 is a bad choice as a back-up or as pocket gun to use when your running into the grocery store in your gym clothes, your kooky. To use the kel-tec as an example, I rarely can carry on me because my personal situation just doesn't allow for it. There are definitely times where I wish that I had a small gun to slip into my pocket for the 5 minutes I will be in the video store or whatever. I personally make it a strong point to try and avoid potentially dangerous situations (parking out of the light, going to walmart at midnight, etc..), and while that is no guarantee, I feel that my risk factor is substantially lower, thus I feel that I am perfectly suitably armed with a .32. Hey guys, don't think for a second that I am saying that if you carry a full on 1911 at all times, your wrong! I am just saying that I strongly believe that the .32 has a very valid purpose, and that if you poo-poo it in comparison to a .45 or something, your sort of missing the point. Also, if you reference the above-mentioned Boxotruth experiment, note that the .32 performed at the minimum limit of what he calls acceptable for defense, as did the .380. Sure, the minimum isn't great, but keep in mind that this is a tiny little round, not a .45.

 

[MICHAEL T]

I think the P-32 will do . I have on in my pocket always and wife has become very good with hers. Are the better calibers yes but this one will be on you when other calibers are at home.

 

[LightningJoe]

The P-32 was my main carry gun for years and it's pretty nifty, but I can carry a snub-nose 38 just as easily as the P-32.

 

[aguyindallas]

I lost my confidence when at about 7 yards, my Kel-Tec P32 could not knock down steel plates unless they were hit right at the top.

 

[Bobo]

The P-32 and P-3AT have always been close in size and effectiveness.

That has changed recently with the introduction of the Cor-Bon DPX round.
This round is probably the best round available now for short barrelled .380ACPs. It has a good balance between penetration and expansion, and it expands very reliably. Many who formerly carried FMJ in P-3ATs due to the limited penetration of most JHPs are now carrying DPX.
Here are some links to wet pack tests with DPX:

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=104;action=display;num=1149377730;start=

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=104;action=display;num=1148670025;start=

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=104;action=display;num=1147392682;start=

http://www.ktrange.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=5183&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

http://www.ktrange.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=5320&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

http://seecamp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=ammo;action=display;num=1148012398;start=

BTW, I have no affiliation with Cor-Bon.

This round is not made in .32 and probably won't be. That means that the best rounds for self-defense in a .32 will remain non-expanding rounds.

 

[Lonestar]

Any of the major calibers is a huge step up from .32 ACP's power. A well placed shot from a .32 may kill someone eventually, but only a shot directly to the central nervous system will have a good chance of stopping them before they can kill you.

You guys are hysterical. A .22lr and a .32 can kill you with one shot in the COM. One .45 or a .44 in the COM is not a sure bet that an attacker will stop attacking. Most .32acp ammo has similar fps numbers as a .22lr but it is thicker and about 20 grains heavier. Its a .22 on steroids. Regardless the best thing about a P32 is you can take it places that a .38 or a 1911 can't go. I bought a P3at simply because I already own a Bersa .380. It is my everywhere piece. I laugh at people who need big calibers to kill people and think anything 9mm and below is useless. Its not the caliber but where you put it that counts. A few well placed .32 rounds Killed a Duke and his wife starting WWI, Killed Ghandi, and countless others.

 

[FastDraw]

The .32 ACP IMHO is (barely) better than nothing at all.

 

[progunner1957]

Everyone is free to do what they want, but there's no way I'd bet my life on the .32acp - especially with ball ammo. I would consider carrying the .32acp as a last-ditch backup weapon to a larger caliber primary weapon, but not as my main gun.

Someone brought up Gen. Eisenhower's .32acp that he carried. That was his suicide gun, in case he were to be captured by enemy forces. He would never have allowed himself to be taken alive, and carried the .32 auto for that purpose.

While A brain shot with a .32acp round will most certainly kill a man, that does not make it a good choice for a primary weapon. Yes, a .32 auto is much more "comfortable" to carry than a full size 1911, but as Clint Smith said, "I do not carry a gun to be comfortable. I carry a gun to be comforted."

The Marines have their Ten Commandments of gun fighting, one of which is, "Thou shalt never attend a gun fight with a handgun whose caliber does not start with the number four." As far as gunfights, they should know what they are talking about.

Coincidentally, the Marines in the sandbox are now carrying what? 1911s in .45ACP.

Think about it...

 

[usp9]

The Marines have their Ten Commandments of gun fighting, one of which is, "Thou shalt never attend a gun fight with a handgun whose caliber does not start with the number four." As far as gunfights, they should know what they are talking about.

Coincidentally, the Marines in the sandbox are now carrying what? 1911s in .45ACP.

progunner1957,
What? Marines I meet at Quantico were and are using Berettas not 1911s. Where did you hear that information?

 

[LightningJoe]

After generations of using 32, 380, 9x19, 44, and 45, we still can't decide on what it all means. All the data still doesn't answer the question. What's wrong? Caliber probably has an effect on the outcome of a self-defense encounter, but it's evidently small compared to other things, so the effects of caliber get swamped by the other effects and they're hard to extract from the data.

 

[Nail Shooter]

I carry a 32 on occasion, but only with ball ammo. If I need to go somewhere that I feel more risk is involved, it becomes a backup to a larger caliber piece.

NS

 

[Javelin Man]

All those that were killed by .32's that past 80 years should be told to get up out of their graves and quit faking it; they couldn't be dead because the .32 is too anemic!

I carry my P32 with a hollow point in the tube and on top of the magazine and the other 6 are Fiocchi round nose. I'm comfortable carrying that as a primary gun that's easily concealed. I prefer my P11 and 13 rounds, but I still feel safe with a P32. I was nearly mugged once as I had my P32 and nearly pulled, but the man noticed what I was doing and left the vicinity pronto.

I did pull my P32 once when I saw the back door to the garage was broken when I drove in. I thought at that point I wished I had my P11, but still thankful for something in my hand. It turned out to be nothing, but at least I was armed with more than a baseball bat.

 

[MikeJ]

My thoughts

When it comes to the need to produce a gun for defensive purposes I see it as being broken down into four categories.

1. When any gun willl do because the BG is looking for an easy target and you aren't it, the 32 will do fine just by showing it.

2. You actually have to use it at very close range because there is no time to do anything else but shoot and the mere fact of getting shot puts an end to the problem, the 32 is fine.

3. You are faced with a very determined assailant, drug induced or mental issues. This is the scenario when I don't feel confident in the 32 to put an end to the problem without getting off a perfect shot.

4. You are faced with multiple assailants, i.e. gang bangers. I definitely want something that is more intimidating, larger caliber and easier to shoot accurately.

I do own the NAA Guardian .32 and I do carry it at times but only when I can't carry my S&W 442.

 

[OhioPaints]

<<<I tried a friend's Kel Tec -....I was getting basketball-sized groups at 25 yards>>>

ROFL! I didn't think anyone would try 25 yards with a Keltec P32! But congratulations, you accomplished something I'd never even try! ;-)

As to the question of the topic, since "experts" claim that 90+% of the time a handgun is successfully used in self defense, no rounds are fired, a .32 should be useful in at least 90% of the cases. As such, it's a lot better than the .45 at home in the safe.

However, I'd generally prefer something larger and more accurate. But if I really can't carry anything else, then I'd take the P32.

Ken

 

[OhioPaints]

<<<...Regardless the best thing about a P32 is you can take it places that a .38 or a 1911 can't go.>>>>

I don't understand that statement. I can take a 45 any place I can take a P32. Of course, I only carry where it is legal.

<< A few well placed .32 rounds Killed a Duke and his wife starting WWI, Killed Ghandi, and countless others.>>>

Of course shot placement is of paramount importance. But I bet those old assassinations were with longer barrels than what's on a P32.

As for the comment allegedly from the Marines "any caliber as long as it starts with a 4", I think that's bravado and stupid. It eliminates the .357 Magnum, .357 Sig and the 10mm. The .357 Magnum is probably a better round than the .45 ACP. And the 10mm is probably better than either.

Ken

 

[progunner1957]

progunner1957,
What? Marines I meet at Quantico were and are using Berettas not 1911s. Where did you hear that information?

USP9,
As I understand it, the Kimber "Warror" 1911 has been issued to Marines in MEU/SOC units, and Marines in regular units in Iraq and Afghanistan obtain and carry 1911s of their own any time they can get hold of them. Marines in the war zone seem to have been granted some latitude regarding their choice of pistols.

Also, I have heard that the Beretta is still being used at large; the Corps as a whole has not (yet) switched back to the 1911/.45ACP package.

I have read/heard the above from several sources. Hope this helps.

 

[Correia]

There is so much nonsense in this thread I don't even know where to start.

Discussions like this one have been done ten thousand times on this forum and others like it.

First off, throwing out Marshall and Sanow numbers is nonsense. See about a hundred other threads for why. Personally I think M&S one shot stop numbers are utter garbage.

Yes, we all know the following:
1. It is better than a pointy stick.
2. Shot placement is everything.
3. .32, .22, or whatever other piss ant caliber you lug around has killed more people than the bubonic plauge.
4. People who carry real guns leave them at home. (since I lug a 15 shot .45 everywhere in nothing more than a t-shirt, I must have missed that memo)
5. Just having any gun, period, will solve most violent encounters.

Okay, now that we got that out of the way, let's look at this like reasonable adults.

.32 sucks. This is an extension of the rule of thumb that all handguns suck. But in a group of sucky weapons, .32 is the bastard step-child that is kept locked in the basement.

Okay, so lets disregard the vast majority of the time where just having a gun is enough to scare the badguy away. Any gun will do for that. Let's move on to actually having to shoot the badguy. At that point, you want to punch a hole in the person sufficient to make him stop doing whatever it was that caused you to shoot him in the first place.

.32 may or may not do that.

Yes, .32 and .22 have killed lots of people. But the goal here isn't to kill the badguy. It is to make him stop hurting you. It doesn't do any good if he dies on the operating table 45 minutes from now. You want him to leave you alone, right now. So you shoot him in something vital, as many times as it takes. This often has the side effect of killing somebody, but that is their problem, not yours.

This is where all handguns suck, but .32 sucks more. You need the bullet to go deep enough to penetrate vital organs. .32 doesn't do that very reliably. Penetration with a .32 stinks. It has a terrible track record of going through tissue, and does even worse when it hits bones. It won't reliably penetrate the top of the skull at anything past bad breath distance.

I love how shot placement is everything is these arguments. However I don't see a lot of guys running Keltec P32s in IDPA. Your shot placement out of a stubby little pocket rocket must be far better than anything I've ever seen in person.

I don't even like to sell .32s. I've had one in the counter for the last 6 months, and sold it the other day to one of my former students who wanted a pocket gun. I told him that if he needed to use it, to aim for the triangle of nose and eye sockets, and repeat as neccesary. He responded that I had taught them to go body first, then move to the head. I said that only applied to real guns.

Look, if you want to carry a .32, you will probably be fine. Most of us won't ever have to shoot anybody anyway. But keep in mind that you have picked the feeblest cartridge out of the feeblest family of weapons. Be aware of your limitations and admit that you carry it because it is tiny and convenient, and not that it has any superiority over any bigger handgun.

 

[RyanM]

I love how shot placement is everything is these arguments. However I don't see a lot of guys running Keltec P32s in IDPA. Your shot placement out of a stubby little pocket rocket must be far better than anything I've ever seen in person.

Not to mention that all those people must have X-ray vision, plus the ability to go into "bullet time" at will. How else are you going to get good enough shot placement for one of those things to make a difference? Same goes for most other pistols, but at least you've got some margin of error there, by not having to aim between the ribs to make sure your bullet goes through...