.338 win mag 200gr Nosler Silvertip OCW target - what next?

[wombat13]

I'm working on a load for my FIL's Ruger Hawkeye in .338 win mag. He says Winchester no longer sells the 200 gr Nosler (Combined Technologies) Silvertip factory load that he has used for years. I'm trying to use the OCW method of finding a load. The attached photo shows my first set of loads. Note that all of the loads, including the one factory round I fired, were impacting 3"-5" above POA. The writing at the bottom shows load charge weight, group max spread, and group center relative to POA.

ETA: Here is the load info in case it is hard to see in the photo. All loads are using IMR 4350, 200 gr. Nosler Silvertips, Hornady brass, and Win LR Magnum primers:

Load 3: 71.0 gr, 1.85" max spread, 3 1/16" high and 3/4" right of POA
Load 4: 71.8 gr, 2.3" spread, 3 1/4 " high and 1/4" right
Load 5: 72.5 gr, 1.4" spread, 3 7/8" high and 1 1/4" right
Load 6: 73.3 gr, 3.4" spread, 4 3/8" high and 11/16" right
Load 7: 74.0 gr, 1.9" spread, 4 1/4" high and 1 9/16" right
Load 8: 74.7 gr, 1.1" spread, 5 3/16" high and 1 1/2" right

Factory round (one shot): 4" high and 1 5/8" right of POA.

Loads 1 and 2 were low charge weight fouling shots (and to check for any pressure problems before working up).

ETA #2: Shots were fired round robin (1 shot of load 3, 1 shot of load 4, etc.). I shot the two fouling shots to get some heat in the barrel and then waited 5 minutes between shots to maintain a warm, but not hot, barrel.

What would you try next? I'm thinking maybe loading 5 each in the following charges: 74.2, 74.4, 74.6, 74.8, 75.0. The other promising possibility is trying loads on either side of 72.5 grains (load 5). Load 5 is an acceptable group (<1.5") and is impacting in the same location as the factory round fired.

I realize that my heaviest load is over the max charge listed on Hodgdon's website. There are no signs of overpressure and this is a hunting rifle. Once the load is developed, there will likely be no more than 2 shots fired per year (many years it will be 0 or 1).

I have other powders if you think I should cut bait. The powders that I have and Hodgdon shows loads with good velocity include: IMR 4451, H4831, and IMR 4831. Hodgdon doesn't actually show IMR 4451 in this bullet weight, but it generally produces similar velocities to H4350. I would call Hodgdon and ask about that powder in .338WM before using it.

 

[Nature Boy]

Man, there’s no way I could make sense of the data represented on that target. Too much variation to draw any conclusions.

 

[wombat13]

Man, there’s no way I could make sense of the data represented on that target. Too much variation to draw any conclusions.

Is my labeling not clear or is it perfectly clear but you can’t draw any conclusions?

 

[Nature Boy]

Using the OCW method, I’m looking for adjacent group centers that deviate the least from point of aim compared to the other groups. The size of the individual groups doesn’t matter. I want to see the least amount of deviation over the widest rage of charge weights. Here’s an example of one of those targets. The average FPS on the left, charge weight on top, distance from POI on the right



As the data shows, there a nice wide node from 30.4 all the way to 31.0

 

[kalielkslayer]

I’m confused as well.

“the size of the individual groups doesn’t matter.”

For me, that’s all that matters. I’ll adjust the crosshairs once I determine the most accurate load.

I use RL22, even for 200 grain billets on that caliber. Some people say it’s too heat sensitive. I work up my loads in the summer heat so I’m not worried about pressure spikes hunting. Maybe the lower temperature hunting, and the thinner air just works itself out but RL22 has always been the most accurate in my guns. And I get more velocity than with IMR 4381.

 

[Nature Boy]

I’m confused as well.

“the size of the individual groups doesn’t matter.”

For me, that’s all that matters. I’ll adjust the crosshairs once I determine the most accurate load.

Well, you aren’t using the OCW method then. After finding the optimal charge weight, or node, the next step is to shrink you group size by adjusting the seating depth.

Good luck to you.

 

[wombat13]

Using the OCW method, I’m looking for adjacent group centers that deviate the least from point of aim compared to the other groups. The size of the individual groups doesn’t matter. I want to see the least amount of deviation over the widest rage of charge weights. Here’s an example of one of those targets. The average FPS on the left, charge weight on top, distance from POI on the right

View attachment 999423

As the data shows, there a nice wide node from 30.4 all the way to 31.0

Thanks for taking the time to help. Is it possible that it is because my charge weight increments are large? I noticed the your charge weights are only 0.3 gr apart while mine are 0.8. Both are about the same in percentage terms though.

So, if you were trying to find a load for this rifle and bullet, would you try a new powder?

 

[BigBore44]

I admit I don’t know what the OCW method is, but whatever “8” (on the far right) is, is where I would start adjusting seating depth. You also don’t have much of a sample size to know if your shooting is part of the poor grouping. Groups 3, 5, 6, and 7 could actually be -1” if you flinched or applied uneven pressure on the stock on the “flier” shot in the group.


I also have a problem going over max. If I can’t find accuracy (consistency) in published data, I try a different powder. I’ve never failed to find an accurate load with published data. If you want to, that’s fine. I just don’t do it.

 

[wombat13]

I admit I don’t know what the OCW method is, but whatever “8” (on the far right) is, is where I would start adjusting seating depth. You also don’t have much of a sample size to know if your shooting is part of the poor grouping. Groups 3, 5, 6, and 7 could actually be -1” if you flinched or applied uneven pressure on the stock on the “flier” shot in the group.


I also have a problem going over max. If I can’t find accuracy (consistency) in published data, I try a different powder. I’ve never failed to find an accurate load with published data. If you want to, that’s fine. I just don’t do it.

I was using a lead sled w/ 25 lbs on it so recoil and flinch would not be an issue since I was shooting 20 shots with a .338. I tried to be very consistent with hold etc. Perhaps parallax was an issue. I had the scope dialed to 9x. Load 5 looks somewhat promising. Note two bullets through the same hole, with the other at the same elevation just to the right. The other loads with 1 flyer seem like the flyer is too far away to be just parallax at 100 yards. There was only a light breeze and it was from 6 to 7 o’clock.

I’m trying to decide whether to try more loads with this powder or try a new powder.

If I load more with this powder, I would load five each in smaller increments around load 5, say 72.3, 72.5, 72.7, and use front rest and rear bags to help with consistent cheek weld. I can wear a recoil pad or not.

I’m leaning toward H4831 rather than IMR 4451 if I try a another powder. IMR 4451 and my .25-06 look like a match made in heaven according to Hodgdon’s load data.

 

[Nature Boy]

So, if you were trying to find a load for this rifle and bullet, would you try a new powder?

Again, based on my understanding of the OCW method, the data you’ve presented isn’t speaking to me, other than to say that the shooter/rifle/load as a system needs more control to isolate the variables.

I was using a lead sled

I’m my opinion, that’s one of the problems. I’ve never shot any rifle I own with any consistency using a Led Sled. You’d have much better success shouldering your rifle supported with bags, front and rear

 

[BigBore44]

I was using a lead sled w/ 25 lbs on it so recoil and flinch would not be an issue since I was shooting 20 shots with a .338. I tried to be very consistent with hold etc. Perhaps parallax was an issue. I had the scope dialed to 9x. Load 5 looks somewhat promising. Note two bullets through the same hole, with the other at the same elevation just to the right. The other loads with 1 flyer seem like the flyer is too far away to be just parallax at 100 yards. There was only a light breeze and it was from 6 to 7 o’clock.

I’m trying to decide whether to try more loads with this powder or try a new powder.

If I load more with this powder, I would load five each in smaller increments around load 5, say 72.3, 72.5, 72.7, and use front rest and rear bags to help with consistent cheek weld. I can wear a recoil pad or not.

I’m leaning toward H4831 rather than IMR 4451 if I try a another powder. IMR 4451 and my .25-06 look like a match made in heaven according to Hodgdon’s load data.

Believe it or not, you can still put pressure on the stock with a sled. But it does mitigate the recoil flinch. I 100% agree with @Nature Boy post above this one. I have a nice Lead Sled and I can’t shoot for $#!¥ with it. But put me on a set of shooting sticks or bags and that all changes.

 

[barnfrog]

Just looking at the numbers, you have the least overall poi shift between groups 3 and 4. 6 and 7 have a similar amount of vertical shift, but a lot more horizontal movement. My understanding of ocw methods would say try a load between loads 3 and 4 to see if it repeats, and if it does, adjust seating depth to tighten group size.

 

[Bill M.]

To me the horizontal dispersion on some of the groups looks like the shooter. I have never used a lead sled or shot a .338 So I do not know much.

 

[Blue68f100]

I use a lead sled all the time. There are things you have to do to make it work consistently. One of the things I have done is make a holder for the front feet to go in. This is mounted to my bench by 1 screw in the center to allow for rotation. The first time I did this was when I was shooting my 458 SOCOM. It worked good for absorbing the recoil. But guess what happened. It moved my bench about 1/2" in 5 shots. My shooting benches weigh around 100 lbs, + another 160 for me setting on it. This particular one I did not set into the ground, so I could move it. So I ended up driving some stakes behinds the legs to keep the bench from moving. I have sensed purchase a Mantis X and gave it a try last week. It indicated I need to do a few more things. 1st I need to strap the barrel down to keep it from jumping. It also indicated I need to keep the adj as close to center as I can. Any off alignment shows up in the recoil path by not going straight. When I'm doing accuracy test and load workups I have my crony setup too. Just to get another data point to look at in relation to where the POI ends up. If I'm using mixed brass it shows up at both places, paper and crony numbers.

As far as your grouping I agree that I don't see enough uniformity to make a judgement. I think your powder jumps were a little too far wide for my taking.

 

[Offfhand]

The .338 Win Mag is one of my favorite calibers for medium to large game, which is why I looked in on this thread.. I've used it for several (many actually) years from Alaska to Africa, always with handloads with 250 gr Nosler Partitions. Based on my experience with the .338 Win, and your FIL's preference, and to save yourself a lot of grief, I'll recommend you get some Federal factory loads with 210gr Nosler Partitions and a box of 210 Nosler Partition bullets. Sight the rifle in with the factory loads. Next work up a hand load with the bullets, which should be simple, just match your load with factory velocity. according to loading manual. Load to same OAL as factory. Check zeroes and make your FIL happy and proud of you.

 

[wombat13]

Thanks for all of the helpful comments. I’m completely open to the idea that I or the lead sled or the combination of the two is causing too much noise in the data.

So, should I do this all over again with a rest and bags, load a subset of these charge weights with the same powder (and use rest/bags) or try H4831 with a rest and bags?

 

[wombat13]

The .338 Win Mag is one of my favorite calibers for medium to large game, which is why I looked in on this thread.. I've used it for several (many actually) years from Alaska to Africa, always with handloads with 250 gr Nosler Partitions. Based on my experience with the .338 Win, and your FIL's preference, and to save yourself a lot of grief, I'll recommend you get some Federal factory loads with 210gr Nosler Partitions and a box of 210 Nosler Partition bullets. Sight the rifle in with the factory loads. Next work up a hand load with the bullets, which should be simple, just match your load with factory velocity. according to loading manual. Load to same OAL as factory. Check zeroes and make your FIL happy and proud of you.

Thanks for the input. I’m doing exactly as you suggest with just one difference. He wants to use the 200 gr Nosler/Combined Technologies silver tip bullet. He has been very happy with it for all the years he has hunted with this rifle. I have his box of factory ammo and loaded to the same OAL. The rifle and the bullet are set in stone.

 

[Keith E.]

I was using a lead sled w/ 25 lbs on it so recoil and flinch would not be an issue since I was shooting 20 shots with a .338.

Are you allowing time for cooling between shots/groups?

Keith

 

[wombat13]

Are you allowing time for cooling between shots/groups?

Keith

Shot the first two fouling shots to warm the barrel, then 5 minutes between shots to keep the barrel warm but not hot.

 

[Blue68f100]

You may want to get a little air pump to help force cool your barrel. Some use the battery pumps used to blow up air mattress. I use a blower that came out of a old server that was making noise. Helps to reduce the time needed to cool the barrel. It's really required if you live in a hot climate.

 

[Bill M.]

Hunting rifle. Hunting loads. I would seat in the groove. Probably too much heating during all the testing. Me..I shoot a featherweight that heats quickly. I load a mid range load and shoot 3 shots from a cold barrel fast. From bags. Look at how it groups and work from there. Maybe let it cool an hour and get another group out of it. It might take a lot of trips. But..I do not think you get 1.5 to 2" changes in groups with a few tenths difference in loads. I read about ladder testing and finding nodes but have never felt the need to actually do it. A gun pretty much shoots or it does not.

 

[Elktrackstw]

#1opinion only Nosler silver tip is same as ballistic tip (high expansion)
2 accubond is a bonded version of the ballistic tip (controlled expansion )
338 win mag is really hard on bullets unless shots are over 250yds
I started playing with Aliant RE19 vs H4350 previously used
Reloaded hundreds but found a spectacular load that I have not deviated.
Might try it to see if it’s more closely matched to gun than IMR 4350
Both H4350 & RE 19 are a tad slower