340PD ammo suggestions

[Strykervet]

I've been using and carrying a 340PD for almost a decade, right when they came out. Most brutal recoil of any weapon I've ever fired. I've destroyed one titanium cylinder using N110 nuclear loads in it before, so I tend to keep to much lighter target reloads and use factory magnums for carry.

So my quesion, what round works best in your experience with these, those of you that use them a lot? For those of you that don't have them, they are super light and not all .357mag loads are the best... Plus it has to be at least 120gr. --but I find loads even heavier than that can unseat due to the brutal recoil --even when crimped well!

I hear a 140gr. bullet is best in snubs in general. My wife currently has the 125gr. Critical Defense in her 649. I have 158gr. Gold Dots in the 340PD. I suppose either will do the job, but I just can't help but wonder if there is a better round for that 340PD due to its peculiarities.

Does anyone handload for the 340PD? I was thinking N340 and a 140gr. XTP for a decent magnum load, but not nuclear. Or perhaps the factory FTX Leverevolution 140gr. Hornady loads, but wasn't too sure how stiff they'd be. I want full mag loads in it, but I need to strike a balance between magnum power and reduced recoil in such a light piece. I am not interested in the short barrel offerings or reduced recoil mag loads, I could load those myself if I wanted them.

If the Gold Dots in 158gr. are desirable, I suppose I could stick with those but I wanted more suggestions... I'd be real interested to hear how the factory 125gr. FTX or XTP loads work in the 340PD if anyone has tried it, in particular if they become unseated due to recoil.

 

[56hawk]

I was going to respond with what I use, but then I realized I have a M&P 360 not a 360PD. So mine has a stainless steel cylinder and weighs two ounces more.

I don't know if I would call my reloads nuclear, but I load 17 grains of H110 behind a 158 grain bullet. It does definitely let you know when it goes off. As far as carry ammo goes, I like Federal 158 grain Hydra-Shoks.

 

[Strykervet]

17gr or so of N110 behind a 125 or 140 JHP caused my titanium cylinder to break, shattered around the flash holes in the cylinder. This is why I'm leary. I have some weak N340 loads in both specials and magnums, near min. and min. loads respectively.

I'll try those out and see what I get and go from there. If I can load some good rounds for my wife, I think that is doable, then I will, but I still feel leary about pushing that 340PD. I'd like a good smoking 140gr. JHP for that one, preferably a factory load.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Pssst...

.38+P Gold-dot short-barrel 135s, or a standard pressure .38 158 gr LSWCHP from Buffalo Bore.

IMHO, there is no reason to brutalize yourself with true mag loads from this revolver. Also, the mag cases and the short extractor rod are a bad mix for reloading the revolver.

I promise I won't tell anyone it's not .357. You can still shake your hand and say "Ow!" after every shot if you want!

 

[340PD]

Great question. I bought a 640 to shoot for practice instead of my 340PD. What I shoot in both of them is handloaded 125 gr plated Berrys flat point bullets with 6.5 gr. of Unique in a .357 case. They work very well for me. Loading the .357 case makes the gun cleaning much easier. YMMV.

 

[JFrame]

In terms of raw data, it looks like the Hornady Critical Defense short barrel .357 ammo splits the difference between the best .38 +P's and the medium-velocity magnums like Remington Golden Saber, and might offer a sweet spot for the uber-lightweight revolvers.

Would be interested to hear any thoughts on this either way...


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[fastbolt]

So my quesion, what round works best in your experience with these, those of you that use them a lot? For those of you that don't have them, they are super light and not all .357mag loads are the best... Plus it has to be at least 120gr. --but I find loads even heavier than that can unseat due to the brutal recoil --even when crimped well!

The restriction against Magnum loads with bullet weights of less than 120gr is to help reduce the possibility of premature gas erosion of the titanium cylinder (nature of the gasses produced in the lightweight Magnum loads, like the 110gr loads), as you apparently previously discovered.

Any load you may wish to use must be checked in the lightweight Ti, Sc & PD revolvers to make sure the bullets aren't unseated by the recoil. (Like the ammunition warning in your safety manual describes.)

If it were me, I'd randomly check rounds from each new box or case you buy (of different production lot numbers), just to make sure no unexpected QC issues had occurred in a different production lot (change in crimps, etc).

While my M&P 340 has a stainless steel cylinder, and is therefore a little heavier than the PD version with the titanium cylinder, I still checked an assortment of Magnum loads when first thinking about carrying Magnum loads in it. I found some brands/bullet weights that exhibited bullet pull (unseating) and some that didn't. If I buy more Magnum rounds of the types which didn't exhibit any problem in my M&P 340, when being fired in my hands, I'll check the future production rounds again.

Personally, while I've used Magnum rounds for quals & practice, I prefer to use some various +P loads for carry use. I can shoot them a little faster and more controllably, which makes me suspect I might be able to shoot them more accurately and effectively under the dynamic and unpredictable stresses of an actual situation.

I still occasionally check the +P loads I use for carry, too, just to confirm no unseating problems.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Strykervet]

In terms of raw data, it looks like the Hornady Critical Defense short barrel .357 ammo splits the difference between the best .38 +P's and the medium-velocity magnums like Remington Golden Saber, and might offer a sweet spot for the uber-lightweight revolvers.

Would be interested to hear any thoughts on this either way...


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I don't have the short barrel variety if they make those, I just have Critical Defense 125gr. JHP's with the rubber plug.

I also have some middle of the road specials loaded, 6.0gr. of N340 and some marked +P loaded with the max load of 6.3gr. N340. I also loaded up some .357's using the minimum charge listed of 7.8gr. N340. I chose the N340 as it was in my inventory and seemed like a good middle of the road powder, and all loads are loaded using Rainier 125gr. JHP's, so I wanted to keep the velocity down on these. My N110 tends to make some nuclear loads, even the starting loads are stiff, and I have doubts it will all burn in a J-frame anyway --N110 fills the case up.

I suppose I can also go down the street and pick up a box of .38+P's, but I figured my weaker handloads worked up to the velocity of the storebought should give me a good comparison. I can also dig up some true +P data and load a few of those too.

I plan on running all these through a chrono while trying to rationalize the recoil to compare too. I'll try to remember to post it back on here when I do it.

Hoping I can get 1300+ from the 649 using 125's with minimal recoil (hope the Critical Defense does it because then we'd be done!). Looking to get 1200+ in the 340PD using 140gr. JHP. I know this will increase the recoil, but I don't mind it too much myself. I shoot the mags at the range from time to time, carry them a lot, and practice mostly with just weak 158gr. .38specials.

Glad this ammo selection thread isn't turning into the usual ".38 vs .357" dead end arguement. Thanks, keep it up, I appreciate that a lot!

Anybody else with some good info to add, someone with lots of J-frame experience shooting a lot of loads, that would be highly helpful. Mostly considering .357 loads. Not so much interested in carrying specials in the magnums, we understand we have to compromise some recoil for power, but we are trying to find the "happy medium" as it were.

 

[fastbolt]

In my particular M&P 340 (again, a slightly heavier model), I found the Rem 125gr 'medium' Golden Sabre load to exhibit bullet unseating to some degree.

I found the Federal 135gr PD, the Rem 125gr SJHP & the Win 145gr STHP Magnum loads to offer no signs of bullets unseating themselves ... in my gun ... (checking the 5th round after 4 rounds had been fired, firing at least a couple cylinder loads of each round). I also had a couple of heavier bullet weight Magnum loads which seemed to run fine, but I wouldn't carry them for normal defensive use, so I set them aside.

Now, having grown up as an avid handloader who felt that an enjoyable afternoon meant running several hundred rounds of stout loads through one or another Ruger Magnum revolver (.357, .41, .44 Magnums and .45 Colt), I'm not exactly adverse to Magnum revolver recoil.

I just no longer feel the need to shoot Magnum loads from S&W Airweight & Airlite 5-shot snubs. I save the steady diet of Magnum loads for my Ruger SP101 DAO 2.25" snub.

I might be more inclined to stick with Magnum loads if I owned a steel J-frame chambered in .357 Magnum ... but I don't.

Running 50-150 rounds of +P loads through my Airweights starts to hammer the underside of my index finger enough, where it gets hit by the rising trigger guard under recoil, as it is, during long range sessions.

I occasionally run some Magnum loads through one of my M&P's, just to demonstrate I can make rapid & accurate doubles & triples on threat targets during some various drills ... but it's not what I'd consider 'enjoyable' like when shooting my SP101 or one of my larger 6-shot .357's.

Different strokes.

 

[Strykervet]

Yeah, we have an all steel 649 and the super light 340PD. The 649 seems okay with everything so far. The 340PD is a little pickier due to the titanium in part. It is so light the recoil unseats bullets easily. Don't even try a taper crimp! So the 158gr. Gold Dots I have right now, they are brutal, but they have a very heavy crimpt that holds well.

I agree, I load a lot too and don't shoot a whole lot of magnums in general. In some weapons, I shoot more than others and in some none. I like shooting specials in the .357's and light target loads in my autos. But for carry, for defense, I want the most power I can pack in a small package.

So I'm gonna try several loads and document it and make a load preference chart for the 340PD. It'll be a work in progress, I'll have to work up several different loadings to try out, but it'll be fun and I'll grow closer to the little beast. I think a chart would be nice, I know some loads are quite manageble and even fun out of the 340PD (light 158gr. specials) but some are brutal (158gr. full magnums) some come unseated, and some don't. So I'll see if I can learn a lot about this particular little gem and spread the knowledge, and since I load and use a chrono, I can get pretty good results with a wide range of stuff, and then compare that to some popular store bought loads.

I'll be going to the range tomorrow so my wife can practice with her 649 and her new laser grips (those LG-305's work great for her so far, the grips are longer and there is padding on the backstrap, great for women she says) and I'll have my 1006 I just got (yay!) and I'll take along the 340PD to test it some more.

I've had this revolver a while, but only got serious about carrying it recently, and wanted a good load for it that fits the bill. Like I said, it is a peculiar revolver at the least, nothing else like it, so if anyone has more to add, by all means share. Favorite loads, best loads (performance-wise from snubs) and means of taming the beast would be great! Thanks again for not turning this thread into a war and keeping on subject.

 

[fastbolt]

Luck to you in your testing program. I'll look forward to seeing what you develop over time.

FWIW, while the particular box of the 125gr Magnum Golden Sabre loads exhibited bullet pull 2 out of 2 times I fired 4 rounds in a 5 round cylinder load, I've not seen any indication of it when trying some 125gr +P GS loads in the same gun. It did surprise me when the Magnum loads jumped their crimp a bit, because I'd have thought the case mouth sealant used in the standard Golden Sabre line (that black stuff that can be seen at the case mouth upon occasion) would have helped prevent this to some degree. Oh well.

As a matter of fact, it was back when the Speer 135gr +P GDHP was brand new that I watched both it and some grungy long-carried Rem 125gr +P GS loads fired out of a guy's 360PD (external hammer version) into a 4-layer denim covered gel block at a hosted gel event.

Interestingly enough, the older Rem +P bullet ... on that day, fired out of that snubbie ... turned in a demonstrated perforamce which was pretty similar to the new 135gr +P GDHP load. This isn't something that's been seen in some magazine articles, though. Just one of those 'Hmmmm" moments.

One of the heavier bullet Magnum loads in Speer GDHP was a load which didn't exhibit bullet pull, but the heavier Magnum bullet does ratchet up the recoil force produced, so to speak (felt directly against the palm of my hand, and the web of my hand during the 'torque effect' of Magnum muzzle rise/whip).

 

[JFrame]

Just to add to the discussion regarding the bullets unseating, I noticed significant unseating with my Remington .357 Golden Sabers fired in a 360PD. It was not enough to bind the cylinder after 5 rounds -- but you definitely don't want to save any unfired rounds for a future shoot, unless it'll be the first round under the hammer.

I also had some unseating using some very old (and very hot) UMC 125-grain .357 ammo -- but not nearly as much as the Remingtons -- possibly because the UMC rounds were cannelured, providing better grip (?).

Just more grist for the mill...


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[HankB]

My "always" carry gun is a 340Sc, with a titanium cylinder. I've found that Winchester 145 grain Silvertip hollowpoints are a good load, and have standardized them for carry. No problems with bullets backing out of the cases, but I try some every time I buy a new box - no telling what the factory does from one lot to the next.

I have Crimson Trace grips on it that cover the backstrap with some rubber - along with helping my aim these lasergrips cushion the recoil a bit so it's merely unpleasant rather than painful. (At least, for a limited amount of shooting.)

 

[Strykervet]

My wife, she got the CT grips, they are nice. She really likes 'em a lot on her 649. I think they'd be the bees knees on my 340PD, but I think I'd like the short ones with the rubber in covering the backstrap. Hers are longer, but the length doesn't bother as much as it did her. 340PD, 1006, G20, they all feel comfortable to me!

Well, judging by this thread, I'd have to preliminarily conclude that Remington GS is not the load for the 340PD. Lots of unseating issues. Not that it makes it a bad round, it just makes it a bad round in that particular pistol. Like I said, it is peculiuar and unique.

Fastbolt, I noticed the exact same issue using the Speer GD 158gr. mags. I have it loaded with those now, those are the ones that seem to not unseat on me. But they do indeed have the most recoil of any rounds fired in it. However, due to the weight of the bullet and the charge used to push it, the recoil isn't as brisant. More of a hard shove (but still brisant in its own way).

Now this is the kind of recoil impulse I'm looking for. The lighter magnums have a very brisant recoil signature that feels like your hand is getting broken. Or caned. Heavier loads shove more and have less of that "caning" feel... So far the only one I've tried that matches this profile is the 158gr. Gold Dot. I'd like to find a 140gr. bullet with a similar recoil profile, but the Corbons I tried felt just like the 110's I had --and those were a bad idea by the way, I only got to shoot one before the rest got unseated --every single one to a greater or lesser degree!

Well, I'm gonna try to get out here later and go get some numbers. Weather depending of course.

 

[Prosser]

I tried a bunch of different stuff.
Settled on Fioochi's 147-8 Semi-jacketed HP's. They go 1131 fps out of my 360PD. Recoil is the most I can handle.
Identical, pretty much, is Buffalobores 158 grain lead HP's, at 1040 fps.

Fioochi is a lot cheaper, and, for some reason the extra nearly 100 fps gives me warm and fuzzies.

Some Corbon 125 grain Hp's went 1204 fps, and were ok, but now out of production.

 

[Prosser]

I tried a bunch of different stuff.
Settled on Fioochi's 147-8 Semi-jacketed HP's. They go 1131 fps out of my 360PD. Recoil is the most I can handle.
Identical, pretty much, is Buffalobores 158 grain lead HP's, at 1040 fps.

Fioochi is a lot cheaper, and, for some reason the extra nearly 100 fps gives me warm and fuzzies.

Some Corbon 125 grain Hp's went 1204 fps, and were ok, but now out of production.

 

[Strykervet]

Well, I just got back and first I'll say I had illusions as to what numbers to expect from such a tiny barrel (it isn't even 2") here is what I got:

The 125gr. Rainier HP were loaded into specials, +P's, and magnum loads using Viht N340. In the 340PD, I got light recoil with the 6.0gr. specials at 614fps and fairly light with the 6.3 (max load) special loads at 718fps. The recoil from the minimum .357 loading was very light for a magnum and gave an estimated 825-900fps (my chrono got wonky, it got dark right when we got there, extra early just for me!).

The Speer Gold Dot 158gr. magnum clocked 851fps and the recoil was just brutal. I mean it hurt. After a couple of loads I decided to use a glove. They'd actually be difficult to use in a self defense situation. Seriously. The Hornady Critical Defense in 125gr. clocked 1075fps from the 340PD and had manageable recoil, stiff and brutal, but you can manage it. I went ahead and fired a cylinder of ammo, skipping over one round, and then reloading two more, one on either side of it, fired those two, then checked to see how much it unseated. It came unseated ever so lightly, but the crimp held in the cannelure. That particular round clocked 1058fps. Mind I fired those extra two rounds either side of it, so I think the Critical Defense would hold up in the 340PD and may be a good choice given the recoil from the 158's. At 1075fps, the 125gr. bullet is equivalent to a 9mm 124gr. standard pressure load fired from a G19 or equivalent ~4" barrel I'd guess.

I couldn't imagine firing a 158gr. anything at 1040fps from a 340PD. I just couldn't. I wouldn't want to. That Gold Dot at 851fps was more than enough for me. I feel these revolvers should be carried with magnums, but not all magnums. Some are just too stiff in this thing.

I'm going to try the Hornady Leverevolution next. It is basically the Critical Defense load but in 140gr. and stiffer by the looks of the velocity: 1500 for the 125gr. CD, and 1440 for the 140gr. Leverevolution. I think if the recoil is manageable, that that round might be ideal. 140gr. at 1000fps might be a good compromise, and the crimp should hold as long as it is as good as the Critical Defense loads I fired.

I'll also work up some more loads in different weights. When I find the right power/recoil/velocity combo, I'll test those loadings out on some jugs and see if I can figure out the best JHP for the task. I bet a LOT of these JHP's won't expand at velocities obtained from the 340PD. I bet the Gold Dot would be best, but in a lighter bullet...

So now at the moment, I have the 340PD loaded with the 125gr. Critical Defense. It was pretty accurate, just as good as the Gold Dots or better, but much more manageable. The bullets don't unseat enough to be concerned with given the cylinder only holds five. They also worked great in my wife's 649, and even tamer.

 

[JFrame]

Well, I just got back and first I'll say I had illusions as to what numbers to expect from such a tiny barrel (it isn't even 2") here is what I got:
...

Hey Strykervet -- thanks for taking one for the team (especially in your hand!), doing these tests, and reporting on them.

It's much appreciated...


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[Prosser]

The really funny part is the 158 load I was talking about is this:
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=108
It's faster out of chronograph then they list it on the website, and, it's .38 PlusP

Since the above load is soft lead, it will expand.

 

[Loosedhorse]

I couldn't imagine firing a 158gr. anything at 1040fps from a 340PD. I just couldn't

And you shouldn't. That's why I recommended Buffalo Bore's 158 at 850.

Heavier bullets in scandium alloy/titanium cylinder guns are the most likely to get pulled. Another good reason to throttle back.

You said you're looking for a happy medium. So was I...but I found mine.

 

[Prosser]

I was going to suggest firing a .475 or .500 Linebaugh Maximum to warm up for the 340 with heavy loads. Only thing is, neither one achieves the recoil speed of the 340-360PD with heavy loads. The 340 will more then double the recoil speed of even the heaviest .500 Linebaugh Max loads.

I would look at a flat point, or wadcutter load, in .38 or plus p. A 130 grain or so, at 1100-1200 fps, with a truncated cone, or flat point, at those speeds, or faster, doesn't need to expand. The velocity creates the wound channel.
I like this approach, rather then relying on HP's to expand. The 125 grain corbon that went 1204 fps out of my 360PD was fine. If it expands, ok. If it doesn't the velocity leaves a nice hole. Win either way.

Another approach would be a 100-125 grain hard cast LFN, with a fast powder, that might get you up in the 1350 fps range. At that speed, the LFN bullet designs expand a bit when they hit.

 

[Bob K.]

I experience crimp-jumping in my 340PD using Critical Defense .38 Spl +P. I use a firm, two-handed hold and limp-wristing isn't an issue. Lovely gun, but it is simply so light and recoil so sharp that Newton's 1st Law works beautifully. By the 5th round, the bullet has jumped about .170". That's not enough to lock up a cylinder, especially since it has .357 Mag length chambers; however, I've written to Hornady to see if they've improved the crimp on newer batches (mine is 3091174 from about 2 years ago). I don't like the idea of using any ammunition for personal defense that jumps crimp. I want pure confidence in the ammo during those goofy--and likely--one-handed, less-than-perfect-grip shots that usually occur during defensive engagements. We'll see what Hornady has to say.

 

[Strykervet]

Huh, because the CD mags didn't jump all that much. Not enough to bother with after only four rounds were fired. Perhaps the specials are different or the crimp is different? Good to know. The 340PD is a habitual crimp jumper though.

Hurt my back and haven't loaded anything lately. Will try to again here soon. Had to give my wife the Hornady's I had left after she shot hers up and now it is loaded with those dreaded 158gr. Gold Dots. They work well. Too well on me is on the only problem.

"This is gonna hurt me more than it hurts you, but..." Indeed.

 

[fastbolt]

FWIW, with the potential for the occasional variability of some QC issues, such as crimping, I feel better randomly pulling and testing loads from each box of commercial ammo I buy, or a box or two from each case I buy, just to check for how well ammo from that production lot does in my guns. ;

 

[Bob K.]

I should note that the Hornady ammo that jumps crimp in my 340PD is the Critical Defense .38 +P 110gr FTX. I haven't tried other Critical Defense bullet weights to see if there's a difference.