.357 Bear Round

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One of my guides carried a pump shotgun with no plug. 1st round was buckshot in the face to get the bear's attention so he could then be shot by the slugs that followed
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I would strongly disagree with the first round buckshot "to get the bear's attention" :scrutiny: Buckshot against brown bears is no different from spraying a .32 ACP at one. It has a poor track record, and most people I know who tote shotguns for bear protection load with brenneke hardcast slugs and have slug barrels with rifle sights. And "getting its attention" in a DLP situation isn't really the goal :D :D The mofos will move so fast you'll be lucky to get a single shot off from anything, let alone have the luxury of cycling the pump through various loads.
 
Doug Wesson managed to bag a grizz, a moose, and an elk with one shot of .357 magnum each. Hunting a bear and stopping a big sucker from eatin' yer toes aren't the same thing but I'd carry a .357 stoked with Buffalo Bore's 180 grain rounds, no hesitation.
 
Whichever load you choose,make sure you file the front sight off that 357...that way when the bear grabs it from you and sticks it up your a$$..it will hurt a little less;)
 
While bears make a formidable foe, there are many who have successfully used a .357 against them. Penetration is the most important single goal when shooting a bear, but the heavier bullets rob speed and velocity. It takes longer to recover when using a heavy, slow bullet and velocity, as noted above, can fall below 700 fps, which makes it problematic.

I'd rather use a 158 JSP. That gives plenty of velocity and penetration (far too much for a human as shooting stats repeatedly show). Too many people hasitly shoot for the head of a bear. Though this sounds resonable, that's not where the bear's brain is. The brain is directly behind the nose. Shots fired at the skull are likely to deflect.

Some bears have been killed by carefully aimed .22LRs (my uncle knew a hunter who loved taking bear with .22LR). This was foolhardy, but the guy always shot at the bear's open mouth. Anyway, a 158gr bullet should maintain the "magnum" velocity without sacrificing it for more mass.
 
Whichever load you choose, make sure you file the front sight off that 357...that way when the bear grabs it from you and sticks it up your a$$..it will hurt a little less
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I doubt any Black Bear can withstand seven rounds from a .357!

I wish I have the funds to go out and buy the gun you think I should have but some of us have to make due with what we have. Since I own a .357 and can't go out and buy a .44 Magnum I was looking for advice on how to maximize what I had.

Thank you for your input TonyB :rolleyes:
 
I have not shot a bear with a handgun, but I know a man who has, a LOT. He DOES NOT recommend 357 on black bears.

JJ Hack(currently professional hunter in Africa) has killed around 100 black bear with a handgun and has guided on countless other black and grizzly bear hunts. He carries a 44 mag with a 240gr - 265gr JHP for black bear PROTECTION. He DOES NOT recommend anything less. He carries JHP and not hard cast because he says the 44mag JHP has plenty of penetration for black bear (not grizzly) and the JHP induces enough trauma to a charging bear that any solid hit will almost always stop the bear or turn it so that you can follow-up with aimed shots. Hardcast will not reliably stop or turn an agressive bear unless you hit the CNS.

You can read some quotes from JJ Hack and his specific opionions and experiences with handguns and black bears near the end of this page. (Hack's quotes are in the purple boxes of my two posts at the end the following thread)

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,89450.0.html

If you must use a 357, it is certainly better than some choices, but it is not reliable black bear protection. These post may help you know what to expect if you use a 357 on black bear.

Be safe out there.

ROLL TIDE ROLL, Welcome Coach Saban.
 
rolltide,
Thank you for your input and information. I found it to be helpful.

Remember my original post, this is "just in case." I'm not hunting or even expecting to see bears, I just want to be carrying the best round in my revolver "just in case."
 
One of the leading guides in AK lets his daughter go out in the woods with a 5 inch .357 loaded with hard cast 180's. Of course she can shoot like a demon and has done it. has the t shirt. too.


For eastern black bear, a non expanding hard cast slug from a .357 is going to be enough provided you do your part. I have seen two one-shot kills with a 41 mag out of a carbine on blacks at less than fifty yards, and he was shooting 210 hard casts, not much different from a 180 hard cast out of the .357. Black bears tend not to have that mongo aggresive nature that the big brown ones have. This comes from not being top of the food chain and having to deal with wolves, coyotes, cats etc, The black bear may not have much to worry about, but it does have to worry some. This usually gives us the edge. If you are facing spring bear, they are much less trouble some than later season bear as they just are not in prime shape from sleeping all winter. Some you see look down right bedraggled.

Spring bear also have much less body mass to shoot up too
 
I have seen pics of PA black bears in the 500 pound plus range, that is lower 48 grizzly size. Hardcast will provide one shot kills if properly placed without question, but it seems the only way hardcast will stop a bear attack is with a CNS shot. In a defense situation that will mean a bear charging you so your only presentation with be a big bouncing head coming at you. If you can hit a target a little bigger that a softball (black bear's brain) while it is covered-up by something a little larger than a basket ball (black bear's head) and do it while said targets are BOUNCING toward you at 30 MPH, then a 357 or larger hardcast will save your bacon. Once you have been hit and the bear is on you, be careful not to shoot your foot or arm or knee that is in the bears mouth just a couple inches from your softball size target which is now shaking you vigorously from side to side. That is the almost certain scenario if you are going to try to defend yourself from a charging bear with a 357.

ArchAngel, there are a few things that you can do to increase your odds of survival regardless of which round you use.

1. Drop to a knee to take your shot if possible. This will save you from having to "lead" your shot as the animal charges you at a high rate of speed. If your gun is nearly level with your target, you can simply aim for the brain, not in front of his nose.

2. Put a tree, a large rock or some other obstacle between you and the bear if time and circumstance allows. The bear will either have to slow down before reaching you to avoid the obstacle, which will allow you a better chance at an aimed accurate shot, or the bear will hit the obstacle and slow down, also providng you a better chance at an aimed accurate shot.

3. You will have 6 shots, try to make as many count as possible before the bear is on you, but don't count on the bear allowing you more than 2 shots to turn, slow or stop it. If it turns, slows or stops, then you quickly try to brain him as many times as possible

4. With a 357, I would seriously consider a 158gr JHP loaded to the highest velocities I could get from them or a 180 JHP if you could find one that would reliably expand. I would load these JHP's for the first 2 rounds in the cylinder then load 4 hardcast behind that for braining or breaking shoulders in case the JHP trauma turned, slowed or stopped the bear the way the 44 mag JHP nearly always does.

Of course there is always the 22LR option for bear defense. Just shoot the next nearest person to yourself in the knee with the 22 and run. If they start to gain on you, even with the 22 hole in one knee (which is a possibilty if being chased by a bear), shoot them in the other knee. Remeber, you don't have to outrun the bear, all you have to do is outrun another person. :evil:

Note to self: Never hike or hunt with ANYONE that carries a 22 for bear defense. :what:

Roll Tide :)
 
Rolltide, Not looking to argue but I have a few issues with your advice. Whether it is a bear or human, never, ever drop to one knee, sit on the ground or do anything that takes your off your feet, period. The shoes you wear and the feet and legs in them are as important as the gun you are shooting. Cover is good, very good as long as you do not "suck' up to it. To mix a load (except for snakes) is a mistake unless the ammo shoots to the exact point of aim. To rely on expanding bullets then to rely on an precise deep penetrating shot with different ammo from the same gun is not sound logic. I shot a 200 lb (best quess) black bear trying to climb up my tree stand in the Great Dismal Swamp in Virginia with 20 Ga. buckshot right in the face from less than 6 feet with a single barrel H&R shotgun. The dogs they had running were chasing him instead of the deer. To this day I don't know if I killed it, but he sure ran like hell and I was not about to search for him. I was on Federal property and could not use slugs. And if you want to really laugh the only handgun I had with me was a Taurus 85 (2" 5 shot .38) with the first two rounds being CCI Shotshell because I was worried about snakes. The animals in that area were called swamp animals or pigmes (spelling) because of the thick swamp brush they would not grow very large so the biggest bear around was probably about his size. With that said, I would not trust any expanding bullet. If I were Archangel I would carry exactly what he is looking at, 180 or 200 grain hard cast bullet traveling as fast as friggin possible. Any animal that can take a blast of buckshot to the face and still run like it had not been hit has to be taken seriously.
 
Elmer's advice

Keith, not Fudd:D
(paraphrased)
Any handgun .38 and above can save you if you keep your nerve. They all open their mouths to attack, so shoot though the mouth to break the neck.

But you have to keep your nerve.:eek:

Old Elmer never said you wouldn't get "chawed" up a bit, just that you could kill the bear. Never was quite sure if this was an example of Elmer's sense of humor or not.

.357 for "just in case". I would go with the 158gr, either JSP or hard cast SWC. I don't care for the 180s out of .357. More weight, sure, but less speed. Especially in a 4 inch.

I would say not to shoot for the head, chances of the round deflecting are high. Even flat point SWCs are no guarantee. I have seen a black bear take 5 rnds of .30-30 in the head, without fatal results. The rounds just skipped around the curve of the skull. Bet he had a hell of a headache, but it didn't put him down. Adirondak black bear, pretty much the same critter you have in Pa.

Best thing you can pack in your .357 against bear? Running shoes!
serious: 158gr SWC (hard cast) or JSP.
Best of all things, don't get yourself in a situation where you have to shoot. But if it happens, aim. Don't spray and pray. And remember bears are actually a lot smaller than they look. The vitals are, anyway.
 
WC,
No problem, I understand completely about the the different POI with the 2 different loads. I assumed ArchAngel would work out that problem depending on the rounds used. If they are both near the same weight and speed, the POI should be close, but that would have to be verified and practiced with. Also thanks for sharing your experience about the buckshot up close.

If a bear is charging you, you are going to turn or stop him or you or going to be off your feet in a couple seconds when it hits you anyway, and you will certainly NEVER out run or out climb a black bear and running is probably the worst thing to do. Kneeling to give yourself the best chance to stop it before it reaches you still makes a lot of sense. Now if you do not have a firearm, you are certainly correct about never leaving your feet. You need to make yourself look as big as possible. I learned kneeling from a man who related how his father, a state police officer in MI, used to shoot problem bears when they charged. He used a 30-30 "dumdum" bullet (filed flat on the front with a "cross" cut into the front of the newly created flat.) Now that may be an idea, take a fast hardcast and cut a cross into the front.

Believe me, I take hogs, bears and big cats VERY seriously. That is exactly why I am taking time to post here. I would have never considered a JHP on a black bear myself until I listened to a man who had used all different kinds of handgun ammo on aggressive bears, over 100 bears killed. Until I hear from someone with more experience, I will carry what he ALWAYS carried for black bear protection, a 44mag with the fast 240 JHP. I have run into bear, hog and big cat in the wild and I often venture into their habitat. With the exception of a big cat (which a 125gr JHP out of a 357 would work just fine on) I would rather have my 44 or even my 445 supermag. ArchAngel wanted everyone's best opinion on the 357, and I gave him mine. I always read these type threads for what I can learn and what I can share. I appreciate your response and I learned from it.

44AMP,
I really like what you say about avoiding a shooting situation. Our best defensive tool is still between our ears, but sometimes a gun is needed to keep an angry bear from opening up our toolbox for us. That is one tool that is only useful as long as it stays in its toolbox.

Just my two cents and I am glad you posted yours.

Roll Tide
 
Sorry that I don't have any helpful knowledge on what size grain or what type of .357 ammo to use for you ArchAngel, but I also have a question.

Most of you say using a JHP (Jacketed Hollow Point, correct?) would not work as well as a Hardcast bullet. Why is that? I figured being a hollow point and allowing the bullet to expand would be the best, making a bigger hole, etc. In what ways would a flat nosed bullet be better than a hollow point?

Also, what would the "cut cross" do for the bullet? I used to own a movie when I was younger (I believe it was called Bear) and one of the hunters was doing this to his ammo, but I could never realize what exactly it did differently.
 
tmette,
You don't want a JHP bullet because it will expand too soon to do any damage to a bear. A bear had tough skin and hair and it's big. Because it's so big it's organs are protected better by their body than those of a human. Add to that the tough skin and hair and you have a "armor" type of cover on the bear. You don't want the bullet to expand too fast and not penetrate to where it can do damage. A Hard Cast Flat Nose round will penetrate deep and do real damage where it's needed.
 
357 vs bear.....bear wins.
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You make it sound like bears are some invincible uber-beasts that feel no pain. Many bears have been killed with .357's.

Of course there are better cartridges.
 
Rolltide, your reply reminded me of something I saw sometime ago. Jim Cirillo of NYPD Stake Out Squad fame used to make a bullet that looked like a striaight cut gear on its face. I believe he even marketed it for a while. I wish I had a picture of it because when you saw it you know it have evil intentions. I still disagree about the kneelng, but I will agree to disagree. My training and experience has always taught me that distance is your friend.

No handgun caliber is a magic death pill to large creatures. One has to also know thier anotomy to properly dipatch an animal. Know thy enemy. This has been a good discussion. :)
 
ArcAngel: /Foghorn leghorn voice/.."It's a joke son.."
Hey,I'm no Trump either..we had a bear problem a few months back and I BORROWED a 12ga......I kept telling my wife"If we're gonna have bears in the back yard I need a bigger gun.":D
 
I think I need to move somewhere where I can hunt something like that. The only thing I have to worry about in the woods in Ohio is falling in the creek.
 
I remember in 1954 some one in wildlife management declared there were no more bears in Ohio. It was published in many papers.

The very day I read that I watched a black sow and two cubs cross our farm in Knox County. Knox is in the middle of the state.

IF you are in the right place at a particular time you will come across some surprising animals in Ohio. Be forewarned.

Used to be some pretty wild life in Northeast Columbus. But that's another story...:scrutiny: ;)
 
I doubt any Black Bear can withstand seven rounds from a .357!

I wish I have the funds to go out and buy the gun you think I should have but some of us have to make due with what we have. Since I own a .357 and can't go out and buy a .44 Magnum I was looking for advice on how to maximize what I had.
Click to expand...

While there are exceptions to anything, thinking you are well protected against an enraged bear with only a .357mag at hand is not in your best interest. Because all you have is a .357mag does not change the terrible situation you will be in if you meet an enraged bear so armed. :what: Since it is bears you are concerned with Tony B has a point you would do best to take seriously! There have been humans that survived long enough to kill or seriously wound the individual who put 6 rounds of .357mag in them before they themselves went down.

In this senario it all boils down to Do you feel lucky today?
I would not and I lived in Brown Bear/Black Bear country for 15 years.

Your statement "I doubt any Black Bear can withstand seven rounds from a .357!" needs to be reconsidered!

Oh Well, Your Bacon not mine!

Have a Nice Day!:)


:evil:
 
When I am fishing the rivers I carry a 2.5" 686. There are no grizzly this low in the valley I live in, and a .357 will do fine for the local Black bears(Mountain Lion is more of a concern). When its time for the backcountry lake fishing in the summer, out comes the Ithaca DSPS with a pistol grip. I attatch it too my backpack in a nylon sleeve with velcro closures and I barely know it's there.
 
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