357 Cast Bullet Load

[Telcontar89]

Hello. I am brand new to reloading. Working with a 158 grain FP hard cast bullet and Titegroup powder (I know not the best for a lead bullet but it's all I have). The load data for Titegroup lists a starting load of 4.5 and a max load of 5.0. I was loading at 4.9. The minimum OAL for this load is listed at 1.610. In order to do this the bullet ends up seated before the crimp groove. If I seat to the crimp groove, which I did with the first ten rounds I loaded, the OAL comes out to 1.57. How should I proceed? Should I load at 1.610 and just crimp into the side of the bullet (using a Lee roll crimp)? Or load to 1.57 and use a lower powder charge? I'm concerned about creating excess pressure by seating the bullet further down. However I will be firing these out of a lever rifle so I want to ensure they have a good crimp for loading into the magazine tube. Any help is much appreciated!

 

[reloaded_in_pa]

Are you loading 357 magnum? If so, that requires a good roll crimp to hold the bullet firm. I wouldn't shoot any that wasn't in the groove. What mold was used to cast them ?

 

[Telcontar89]

Are you loading 357 magnum? If so, that requires a good roll crimp to hold the bullet firm. I wouldn't shoot any that wasn't in the groove. What mold was used to cast them ?

Yes it is 357 magnum. They are hunter’s supply hard cast bullets purchased from midway

 

[glockgod]

Seat to crimp groove apply firm crimp and "choot em!"

 

[reloaded_in_pa]

I just looked on Midway at the bullet. I would crimp on the groove. But..... I do not use Titegroup, I use 296 for my mag loads.

 

[FROGO207]

I generally use the crimp groove as provided and work up my load from this length. Be cateful of double charges andTG can be spikey at full charge.

 

[AJC1]

How did you get a minimum oal longer than the maximum sami spec. Start with a minimum charge and seat the bullet to the crimp grove. The positive roll crimp in that groove will prevent dangerous pressure spikes from setbacks.

 

[Telcontar89]

I generally use the crimp groove as provided and work up my load from this length. Be cateful of double charges andTG can be spikey at full charge.

How much of a concern is excess pressure if I go below the minimum oal?

 

[Telcontar89]

How did you get a minimum oal longer than the maximum sami spec. Start with a minimum charge and seat the bullet to the crimp grove. The positive roll crimp in that groove will prevent dangerous pressure spikes from setbacks.

That is the minimum length for this load given by Hogdon. I thought it was weird too that it is beyond the sami spec. But apparently there are concerns about excess pressure if the bullet is seated low over this charge

 

[AJC1]

Seat to grove on minimum charge and test... the under bullet volume for 357 is a lot less sensitive than 9mm.

 

[Blue68f100]

How did you get to the 4.9gr load?

If you just picked it out of the air without working up, set those to the side for now. Start low and workup with the bullet seated to to the cannalure grove. Once you get to that charge group with no pressure signs, you can shoot them, but the length being long will not give you the same data. TG is not a powder to take lightly. It's blown up many guns when it was first introduced, till every one learned how sensitive it was to case volume. TG also run very hot, which is not the best thing when shooting a revolver. You may find that you can only shoot several cylinder full before the barrel is too hot to touch.

 

[Charlie98]

How much of a concern is excess pressure if I go below the minimum oal?

With TiteGroup... I would be concerned.

The proper process is as AJC suggests... start by seating the bullet to the crimp groove and with the starting powder charge. Work your way up, watching for signs of pressure (flat primers, or... to the extreme... split cases and such.) TiteGroup peaks very fast, so just ease up on it... don't get in a hurry and jump your powder charge .5grn or something.

Although you said it was all you have... TG is really the wrong powder for your application.

 

[Charlie98]

TG also run very hot, which is not the best thing when shooting a revolver.

He's shooting these in a lever-action...

 

[SASS#23149]

since u r shooting these in a lever gun,for sure use the roll crimp groove. Make a couple of dummy rounds to cycle thru the gun to be sure the length ,crimped in the groove, will cycle thru the action

 

[Random 8]

IF you were working to the PMAX for the .357 cartridge, I would use more caution and work up as stated above. In looking at your specific load, you are well below the max pressure for the cartridge, in the neighborhood of .38+P. In other words, huge safety margin in .357 mag. You'll often find this with cast bullet load data in more powerful cartridges. They are not loaded to full potential as to do so would push the lead too fast and lead your barrel.

The .357 case is absolutely cavernous for that tiny pinch of TG. So long as you're not mashing a SWC all the way into the case onto the powder charge, seating depth will have little effect on pressure vs a small case capacity such as found in 9mm where seated length is critical to safe pressures.

Seat on the crimp groove, shoot, be happy. Tweak the load up or down per data to seek out your best accuracy.

 

[Telcontar89]

With TiteGroup... I would be concerned.

The proper process is as AJC suggests... start by seating the bullet to the crimp groove and with the starting powder charge. Work your way up, watching for signs of pressure (flat primers, or... to the extreme... split cases and such.) TiteGroup peaks very fast, so just ease up on it... don't get in a hurry and jump your powder charge .5grn or something.

Although you said it was all you have... TG is really the wrong powder for your application.

I do have some hogdon h110. But I’ve heard that is even worse for my application. I can’t even find any load data for h110 and a lead bullet.

 

[Charlie98]

The issue with H110 at Magnum velocity is barrel leading with cast bullets. I load commercial cast bullets (including Hunter's...) to Magnum velocities for my .41MAG Marlin without problems, using IMR4227, H110, 2400 and other Magnum powders. Where there is a problem is soft lead bullets, too hard bullets, and/or bullets that don't fit the bore. I would probably give H110 a try before TiteGroup... just use the starting charge and load about 20 of them.

 

[AJC1]

I do have some hogdon h110. But I’ve heard that is even worse for my application. I can’t even find any load data for h110 and a lead bullet.

It's not worse it's just picky in a different way. H110 requires a magnum primer for correct ignition and does not like reduced loads. If your bullet leads badly or cannot handle the speed your done with that powder.

 

[Telcontar89]

The issue with H110 at Magnum velocity is barrel leading with cast bullets. I load commercial cast bullets (including Hunter's...) to Magnum velocities for my .41MAG Marlin without problems, using IMR4227, H110, 2400 and other Magnum powders. Where there is a problem is soft lead bullets, too hard bullets, and/or bullets that don't fit the bore. I would probably give H110 a try before TiteGroup... just use the starting charge and load about 20 of them.

The data for 158 grain h110 only talks about a hornady xtp bullet. So you would suggest using that data at the starting load?

 

[Random 8]

People get their panties in a wad about TG. You're on a good path. I've loaded similar loads to yours in .357 with TG. Only reason I didn't stay with it was because I found it in the last shortage, and found something else to replace it first. My loads were accurate, safe and reliable. For low velocity target loads there is absolutely nothing wrong with it so long as you watch your charge weights precisely. Save the H110 for heavy jacketed hunting loads.

 

[Obturation]

TG is a great powder, it absolutely must be carefully metered as a triple or more charge will easily fit in the case and you may not notice if there is no charge at all. I use it for lighter jacketed 357 loads but it will work fine for your application.

H110 will only produce real magnum velocities but as was mentioned, it doesn't download- don't try. It will depend on bullet diameter , hardness, lube used if it will lead much at full velocity. I have no problem pushing plain base hard bullets over 1300 fps with minimal leading. That same load is terrible in a rifle barrel though- inaccurate and lead a fair bit.

Handloading and reloading are trial & error endeavors , play around (safely) & find out.

Got any 2400?? It's my favorite 357 powder.


Did you find h110 load data for that bullet?

 

[Obturation]

From 4th Ed. Lyman cast bullet handbook.
357 rifle data is the same as handgun data.
Their 158 swc seated to 1.575" (where yours ends up if seated to the groove) doesn't list it as a gas checked bullet and is moving out at 1850 fps at max- that's really moving.
If I were you, I'd try the minimum h110 load and see what you've got. Of course because it's a different bullet , different alloy and lube things will be different. Procede with caution and examine fired cases for signs of trouble . it would help if you could chronograph your shots to make sure things are looking normal.

Good luck

 

[Ifishsum]

You shouldn't use data for a jacketed bullet (XTP) to load a cast lead bullet, so no on that question. There is data for H110 and cast bullets in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook if you choose to go that direction. (as Obturation posted above while I was writing) I've personally only used H110 for jacketed full-house magnum loads.

Titegroup can be used safely used, just got to be careful. The reason your min OAL doesn't match up is that Hodgdon probably used a slightly different shaped 158gr bullet for their tests. For cast in .38/.357 I ignore the OAL listed and always seat to crimp into the groove. Rarely does your cast bullet exactly match the one used in the published data, but If you begin with the starting load and seat to the length that allows a proper crimp in to the groove it should be safe. If you have some loaded at 4.9 I would set those aside as suggested previously until you can test fire some at 4.5 and maybe some at 4.7gr to verify. Then proceed to your 4.9 if you're comfortable with things. Starting out at above min listed is not a good practice for a new reloader IMO, and Titegroup is especially not a powder to do that without first testing.

 

[Charlie98]

The data for 158 grain h110 only talks about a hornady xtp bullet. So you would suggest using that data at the starting load?

Obturation beat me to it...

As AJC mentions... either it will work, or it won't.

 

[mdi]

Did you work up to 4.9 gr (max being 5.0) or start there? For over 40 years I have seated all my revolver bullets to the crimp groove and disregarded book OAL. But, I have always started at or near min loads and worked up if necessary, checking for sticky extraction along the way. Every load has fit the cylinder perfectly. I have never had a problem with this method in my 44 Magnum carbine or 7 various caliber revolvers...