357, H110 and 158 - are instructions always this screwed up?

[The Bushmaster]

Oh the hell with it...It all depends, EddieCoyle. If he is shooting a short (under 3") barreled revolver, W-231 will get him some very fast bullets. Where 2400, H110 and W-296 won't. If he is shooting a longer (above 3.5") barreled wheel gun then W-231 is a bad choice. Unless it is used in an semi-auto pistol. Then all bets are off as I have had very good results with W-231 in up to 5" barrels from 9mmX19 and .45 ACP

 

[Hawk]

FWIW, the H110 and 158 XTP is for a 686 with a 6" bbl.

I've got a shorter 66 - 3" or 4" not sure. I'd picked up some 125 grain XTPs and Unique for that guy but wanted to get the 686 running right first. Full power factory loads in the 66 are unpleasant. XTPs might be overkill in reduced loads but I was leery of leading. W231, from my fora lurking, looked good for anything I'd do with the 66.

My apologies - should have specified 686-6"

 

[The Bushmaster]

Hawk...Is that 66 a stainless S&W? If so you might have another look at W-231 and that 125 grain JHP. I have a mod 19 S&W 2 1/2" Combat magnum that just loves 7.6 to 7.8 grains of W-231 under a 125 grain SJHP Remington bullet. I'm geting a nice 1100 +/- a few fps from it...

 

[Hawk]

The 66 is a "dash -2" S&W stainless that was rode hard and put up wet, grinder marks and all. The W231 sounds good - I've already got those 125 XTPs I need to use up.

It probably wouldn't be as unpleasant with full loads but for those itsy-bitsy wooden grips.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Grinder marks??? Be aware that even at 7.6 grains of W-231 you have a rather warm load even if the book says you can go to 8.1gr. Had to say that...Grinder marks...Wow...

 

[Hawk]

Yup - rescue mission 66. The right side of the shroud has a bevel that Smith & Wesson never intended. It may have been an attempt to brush out some dents... by someone who brushes out dents with 32 grit Norton pads at 1800 rpm.

Structurally sound, though.

 

[Hutch]

Take heart, be not afraid of H110. For full-tilt-and-boogie magnum revolver loads, it's the best. (I nearly said "Da Bomb", but didn't want to give you the shivers). Not very flexible, as you've noted, but when you care enough to send the very best, that's a great choice.

 

[YodaVader]

The H110 will work fine - it's not like it's a squib waiting to happen. Just stick with the recommended charge weights and you'll be OK.

I agree , I lost count of the number of containers of H110 and 296 I have gone through in the nearly 20 years I have been reloading. In the past dozen years I have used these two quite often for 357 and 44 mag loads , never a stuck bullet , never a misfire or squib. The loads I used were all published loads for the specific bullet I was using. The crimp , I just try to duplicate , as close as I can - the crimp you find on a factory round.

The H110 and 296 "twins" have given me some of the most consistent and best accuracy in all the revolvers I have used it in. As well as a single shot TC and 44 mag lever action rifle.

An older lot of AA#9 and 2400 have worked well for me too.

 

[GooseGestapo]

H110/Win296 work exceptionally well in the .357mag.

However, don't go below 15.7 or exceed 17.0g with the 158gr.
You'll find a good load somewhere between these, or just use the powder measure you have that throws between these.

Do use a Magnum Small pistol or Federal #200 primer.
Do use a moderate to heavy crimp.

Try several steps within this range to find accuracy.

After you run out of powder, Buy Hodgon Lil'Gun......
Best HEAVY magnum powder I've found for the .357mag.
Pressures substantially less than other powders, velocities 50-100fps FASTER.
I prefer #2400 to H110, but thats a LOOOONNG story......... 30yrs of experience and carrying the .357 on-the-job.

Use not MORE than 18.0gr of LilGun. Greater amounts (with 158gr jacketed bullet) dosen't give better results although one gun-scribe recommends 19.0gr). I get best results at 17.8gr (handgun and carbine) and a magnum primer.

Hodgdon actually DOES know what they're doing ..............

 

[Hawk]

Starting at 16 and possibly going to 17 incrementally looks like a plan.

I notice that all of Speers numbers are below Lyman's "don't go below" numbers and all of Lyman's exceed Speer's "never exceed" numbers.

From EC's earlier post:

Here's some data:
...
Lyman 3rd Edition: Low-16.3, High 17.0
...
Speer Number 13: Low-13.9, High-15.5

How cool is that? I've stumbled across a combination that has NO safe starting load. At least not if one is trying to keep both Speer and Lyman happy.

I did notice that Speer had a 1.57 OAL, Hodgdon a 1.58 and Lyman a 1.59.
The Dillon manual says the bullet should be seated so the case mouth is in the middle of the cannelure. No doubt this would be a 4th OAL.

I'm done worrying about it. 16 is below Lyman's minimum but something has to give.

It's numerically impossible to derive a number which is both below 15.5 and over 16.3. I don't suppose it's possible the OAL variations could skew the results that much?

Just 'tween us here, do old time reloaders have little secrets like "Speer is conservative and will get you in trouble with slow powders" or "Lyman is a bunch of cowboys, their "never exceed" will grenade a Freedom Arms"? Wink, wink, nudge nudge? Just wondering, here.

 

[dan22644]

Not to highjack the thread, but I have a related question.

Would a Nosler 158gr JHP be ok over H110? I have load data for 110gr XTP and 125gr XTP, but my manual does not specifically say if you should be using an XTP bullet at 158gr. Thanks!

 

[Hawk]

Hodgdon web site: Low-15.0, High-16.7
Lyman 3rd Edition: Low-16.3, High 17.0
Lee 2nd Edition: Low-15.0, High 16.7
Speer Number 13: Low-13.9, High-15.5

Are all numbers for 158 grain JHP. Hodgdon's web site notes 158 Hndy XTP specifically.

EC provided the above - I've got Lyman and Speer.

Edited to add: Brands aren't clear apart from the XTP - pic looks "right".

 

[GP100man]

hawk

i shoot a 6"gp100 with 15.5 grs.under a 158gr. cast boolit no problems even with a regular primer!!!
just dont go below13.5 it will give inconsistent burning!!
lil gun no lower than 16gr to burn good.
all my cases are starline
all primers ww small pistol

GP100man

 

[Hawk]

I just got around to cleaning the 686 after shooting the 14 grain loads - front of cylinder was nasty. Took MP7 and Scotchbrite to get back to where I could see the stainless.

Is that indicative of dubious ignition, or just an H110 thing? I don't recall getting it with any factory rounds.

 

[CZ57]

Hawk: You can get better performance from AA#9 in .357 Magnum than what you'll get from H110. You'll need to chronograph loads rather than buy into Hodgdon's overly optimistic data. The load range from start to max charges is much broader also. Accuracy can be outstanding. Take a look at the data: http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/...738Cal(9.2mm)/357 Magnum pages 100 to 102.pdf
it is honest and although it isn't stated, the velocities were recorded with a 6" Smith 686.

For shorter barreled .357 Magnums, few will perform better than AA#7.

 

[GP100man]

hawk
all powders burn better at there top loadings, more pressure ,more fire ,qwiker burn!!
when you get a low load detanation youll know it for sure erattic recoil & report from the muzzle is one indication ,the other is you have to pick up the pieces if your able.
i tried to down load lilgun called em on the phone & talked to a tech & he said not to go below16gr. then i asked about 14.0 gr in a gp100 ,he said try it only in the gp & call him back,thats when i experenced erattic detonation,
i didnt like it at all !!
16 grs of lilgun was to strong for my cast boolits so i worked up 15.5gr of h110 ,thats what i hunted with in my GP100
ive now been paid for some service with ww 296 so here we go again !!!

i love it though!!!!!!!

if looking for a mid range loading herco &800x are my favorites ,kind of coarse powders but work ok thru my lee auto disc thats been graphited a little.

GP100man

 

[pinkymingeo]

I tried 16.0 of LilGun in 357 with a 158 JSP in my 5.5" revolver for 991 fps. Yes, magnum primer and heavy crimp. I've had equally miserable results in 44mag. This week I'm gonna try above 17 up to 17.8 and see if something better happens.

 

[EddieCoyle]

I tried 16.0 of LilGun in 357 with a 158 JSP in my 5.5" revolver for 991 fps. Yes, magnum primer and heavy crimp. I've had equally miserable results in 44mag. This week I'm gonna try above 17 up to 17.8 and see if something better happens.

For what it's worth, I had poor results at first with Lil' Gun in my .460 revolver. I bumped the charge up to 43.5 grains (from 40.0) and my groups went from 5" at 100 yards to about 1-1/2".

 

[Hawk]

Portions of North Texas are underwater so I didn't get to try out my brand spankin' new chrony. The indoor range was alive and well, though.

The 16.1 grain loads of H110 behind 158 grain Hndy XTPs were great fun. Subjective recoil was still just under factory Remington 180s.

Being new, I'm not sure I'd recognize pressure signs if any existed, but I understand "sticky" cases are an early indicator (?). If so, I'm still light - cases basically fell out. Still dirtier than factory but "flashier". When I reset the dies I made sure the crimp was plenty tight.

So, I'll run a bunch at 16.4 and see what gives. I want to find something functional then just run a couple hundred. My "set-up" is more production oriented and "working up loads" is a pita. I'm going to have to cave and do something about that soon, I guess. Thanks for the help, all.

 

[CZ57]

W. Central Texas ain't fairin' much better!

 

[Ranger J]

At first I didn’t like H110 but have come to use it a lot. I don’t load H110 for a pistol but it is my load of choice for my .44 Deerfield. It gives excellent accuracy and cycles great. I have never had any problem getting it to ‘light’ even using standard primers. Even in the rifle the sound and recoil will be somewhat ‘sharp’ as compared to say AA #9 or 2400or factory loads. I like Blue Dot in my .357 for both my 4” pistol and my 1894 Marlin. It will burn somewhat dirty but will be a good powder to start with.
RJ

 

[C.F. Plinker]

I just got back from the range trying out an H110 load in my Marlin 1895 with the 18.5" barrel. I am using Winchester brass, Winchester small pistol magnum primers, and the 158 gr XTP bullets. Hodgdon's rifle data gives a starting load of 15 grains with a velocity of 1619 fps using the same components as I have. The maximum charge is 16.7 grains yielding a velocity of 1757 fps.

I started off with a 15 grain load. The first shot was off in one corner of the target so I adjusted the sights. The next 4 were in a 3-9/16 group (50 yards) with an average velocity of 1728 fps. This is almost Hodgdon's maximum velocity. the second load was 15.2 grains. The 5 shot group was 1-15/16 and the best 3 of the 5 came in at 9/16". The average velocity was 1776 fps (SD=25) which is above Hodgdon's maximum so I decided to call it a day.

Back at the house I measured the pressure ring expansion. The average for the first group is .3807" and for the second group it is .3812. So the increase is .0005". The flat area of the primer has increased slightly, but there is still a good radius on the outside edge of the primer. Some of the cases were sooty along the front 1/2-2/3 of their length.

Do you think I have found the maximum useable load for this rifle? Should I work down to about 14.4 grains trying to find another good grouping load?

Thanks in advance for your help and advice.