.357 mag/.38 vs .223

Status
Not open for further replies.
J

JimmerJammerMrK

Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
131
What are your thoughts on a .38 special/.357 mag carbine vs a .223 rifle for plinking? In my mind, I see the .38 special/.357 gun as cheaper to shoot than the .223, but not as accurate. The rifle itself, however, is also less expensive, and I'd really like to spend between $400 and $500 on the rifle if at all possible (that doesn't include the scope I might need if I went with one of the Savage .223 rifles).

Also, how does the .357 compare to a .223 in terms of power? What about a .22 or .22wmr? I realize the .357 is a handgun cartridge, but I'm trying to compare it to what I know, which is .22, .22 wmr, and .223. Thanks so much.
 
n a nutshell, about the same energy for a .357 out of a rifle and a .223.
Click to expand...
At a hundred yards, a 55 grain .223 has almost twice the energy as a 180 grain .357.
The .223 is far flatter shooting however. Whether or not the .223 or .357 will be "more accurate" will depend on the rifle.
Click to expand...
Well, with the 357 dropping a foot at 100 yards, vs. an inch for the .223, I think there is a clear winner in the "which is more accurate" department for "plinking" -- as opposed to say benchrest shooting. With a difference like that in drop, it just magnifies the variation introduced by shooting offhand.

As for the original question about which for plinking, neither is gonna be cheap plinking, but 357 is certainly cheaper than 223. I really think you should take into consideration other factors. Will this be your first and/or only high powered rifle? If so, then you might think about which has more utility to you as a SHTF weapon.

Another factor to consider is your budget. What kind of 223 would you expect to acquire for $400-$500? You mention Savage. Have you considered a Saiga?

I like, and shoot, both cartridges. I don't -- yet -- have a rifle that shoots 357, but I hope to some day.
 
A .357 rifle will be cheaper than a .223 rifle on average, but I don't see .357 mag ammo being cheaper than .223. I guess it depends on what you buy. You might go through less ammo in the long run shooting a levergun than a semi-auto I guess.
 
I'd have a hard time seeing the .357 dropping a foot at 100 yards. My Marlin Cowboy only seemed to lose a few inches at that range, even with .38 SPL loads. And with those "heavy" bullets, it really tossed around whatever I was plinking at when they got there.
I would go with the .357 just for plinking. If you choose to reload you can get about 1400 rounds of .38 SPL out of a pound of powder. And they are just so much fun to shoot.
Also, I have shot the beretta storm carbines. The first time I shot one it didn't seem that impressive but that's probably because I was shooting my FAL right along with it. Now I am thinking that they are kind of cool. A 9mm out of a 16" barrel gains some power and 9mm is still about the cheapest thing to shoot short of a .22.
 
Yeah a foot is an exaggeration.

.223
http://www.remington.com/Products/Ammunition/Ballistics/results/default.aspx?type=centerfire&cal=6
.357
http://www.remington.com/Products/Ammunition/Ballistics/results/default.aspx?type=pistol&cal=5
.38sp
http://www.remington.com/Products/Ammunition/Ballistics/results/default.aspx?type=pistol&cal=10

There are quite a few .223 rifles at the $400-$500 range. Savage, stevens, remington sps?, Howa...might be some more.
Muzzle energy for .223 and .357 are comparable and I'm pretty sure the ballistic coefficient is comparable too. Half the energy at 100 yards sounds like an exaggeration it's more like 300 yards.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_ballistics_table2.htm

Essentially it's the same, but with more arc. However if you ever want to hunt with one you may pick the .357 for heavier bullets.
 
A Savage with a scope isn't exactly a plinking rifle.:)

If you want to "plink" at clay pigeons 200 yards away, it's your best choice. It's fun, and .223 for the purpose is relatively cheap. It's meditative, challenging and relaxing: good recreation.

If you want to do what I'd call plinking, though, the lever gun will be more fun, for you and anyone you hand it to. Popping bean cans at iron-sight distances isn't all that amusing with a scoped bolt gun, even though it might be good practice for hunting. With a little lever carbine, it's fun! (Ditto for a Mini-14)

That said, a Marlin 39A is even cheaper to shoot than the 1894C, and it is built and it feels just like the centerfire Marlins, except for the recoil (thinking .30-30, not .38 when I say recoil).

A real advantage of the .38 over the .223, though, is that the bullets DO drop before they get too far away. With a .223, you'd better have a really good backstop, no matter how far out in the country you are.
 
357

i have 1 357 legacy puma with a 20' barrel. much like carrying a bb gun so far as handiness goes. acurrate and fast rate of fire. good to 100 yards at least, that is all the range i go to is set up for, with the berm right behind the 100 yd targets. cheap to shoot with 38's, great gun for children/teens.
downside, no scoping the 1892 repos unless you go with a scout setup.
 
I would second the 9mm Carbine suggestion. The rounds can be had as cheaply as $.10/rd much cheaper than .223 and even cheaper than .38. The power level is between .38 and .357. They are just as fun to shoot.
 
Well the .357 is a decent plinking round, but from the Remington links someone provided it looks like muzzle energy is roughly 40-60% of a .223, that's "comparable" only in the loosest sense of the word.

Once you get used to it I don't think the 3" trajectory difference at 100 yards would make much difference. I've got a Sub2000 in 9mm and shooting pistol caliber carbines is a lot of fun.
 
A foot drop at 100 yards may be a bit of an exaggeration, but 8" isn't. I guess it depends on what ammo you are using. I had quite a bit of drop playing with my Rossi levergun at 100 yards. I had to aim at the top of the target to get them in the black. It was very predictable though and easy to stay on target with different ammo. The links above are blocked so I don't know what the curves say.
 
You do have to play around with it a bit. If you run out of powder before your bullet makes it out of that long barrel then I can see how you would get more drop. But with a load your rifle likes you'd be suprised. I was shooting mine with handloads with 7.5 grains of Unique and a 158 grain JHP at 100 yards and they were so fast and flat shooting that the other guys at the range with me didn't believe that I was shooting a .357. I was also able to keep an empty gallon jug dancing around with it at 100 yards with .38 SPL handloads. Recoil is nonexistent and the noise is light enough that you can almost not use earplugs. For fun, a pistol caliber carbine is a no-brainer.
The more I think about it, the more I want a Beretta Storm. Damn gun stores !
 
From my understanding of the Remington .357 link, those velocity and energy values are out of a 4" or 8 3/8" barrel, I could be missing something though. From what I've read, the rounds should gain somewhere from 300-450 fps out of a rifle length barrel. As for the power, Ive been reading around on the topic of .357 mag carbines (i think I need one), and it seems that if you are a reloader, you can really bring out some power in the longer barrels, I believe there is another thread active now that addresses this. This link, hijacked from the other thread, shows what can be done with the .357 out of a carbine, its pretty impressive and many of these loads turn out more powerful than the .223.

http://leverguns.com/articles/paco/357_magnum_and_the_literature.htm
 
.357 in a carbine can be loaded to .30-30 energy levels. It gains a lot of velocity in a carbine barrel.

It won't shoot as flat as .30-30, since it's a big blunt pistol bullet, but it's not a weak round.
 
:( I guess people didn't really catch on to my post. The Remington .357 ballistics are indeed from a pistol. I posted that to show that even out of a pistol a .357 has a 3'' drop at 100 yards not a foot. If you guys look at the last link I posted.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_ballistics_table2.htm

Chuck has direct comparison between a .223 and .357 out of rifles. Muzzle energy wise they can be loaded pretty much the same 1282ft/lbs - 1175ft/lbs. If you look at the ballistic coefficient and how much energy is lost you'll see that they are also comparable. At 100 yards it shows 998ft/lbs - 715ft/lbs. However if you're hunting the heavier bullet on a .357 is going to penetrate much better, but the .223 is going to be more accurate.
 
I have several 223's--a cz bolt gun and 3 AR's, and I'm actually picking up a Marlin soon in 357, partially because 223 ammo has gotten so scarce and pricey. I have carbide reloading dies and the 357 is fast and easy and cheap to reload. I have some loads where I can use the Lee dippers rather than having to weigh charges and it's very fast and easy. The 357 out of a rifle works nicely on deer with practically non-existent recoil, and the little carbine's are even handier than a 16" AR. Drop a small scope on it--a 1x4 or 2x7 and they compare favorably to the accuracy of the average AR. The savage may or may not be more accurate, but to me a bolt gun of that size is nowhere near as handy and as much as I respect the accuracy tendency's of Savage's, I personally don't love their stock design and find it a gun you have to work hard to shoot well because of it (it's hard to explain, but you can have two guns that shoot 1/2" groups, and one might be easy to get those groups with, and the other you might have to work hard to get the groups, just based on stock design/ergonomics etc). Now if you got something like a CZ 527, that is still a very lightweight handy rifle for 223, and mine has some great wood.

Bottom line, though, you probably won't go wrong with the Savage or a Marlin--both quality rifles, but very different rifles to my mind. The Savage is more of a varmint gun, the Marlin more the fun plinker and bantam weight handy deer (or small game with 38's) gun. That's one more thing for the 357--variety of ammo between 357's and 38's.
 
I'd go with the .357 myself. Ammo is cheap. Less muzzleblast. Better round for deer-sized game.

Most importantly in my mind, and I'm amazed no one has mentioned this, a .223 barrel is gonna heat up LOTS faster than a .357. You'll spend alot of time waiting for that .223 barrel to cool off that could be spent rattling off .357.
 
Some thoughts...

1. You can get a nicer .357 levergun (or pump) for your money than a .223. The Savages are fine guns for the money, but the Marlin 1894 is (to me) clearly a better-built gun. That's just me, and I'm heavily biased toward blue steel and wood.

2. Muzzle energy is only part of the equation. Bigger heavier bullets tend to exceed their paper ballistics in terms of effect on target. Comparing wounding potential across a big disparity in either bullet diameter or weight is quite difficult. So difficult, in fact, that nobody's ever done it well. Energy comparisons tend to work best when these two factors are very close. .308 to .30-06 to .300 Magnum, for instance.

3. The .357 leverguns are about as handy as rifles get. Light, great in the hand, point like a nice bird gun, shoot like a big .22. Everybody who has ever shot mine loved it. In this regard, I prefer my Marlin to any .223 I've handled. Even the AR-style guns aren't as lively is the 1894. I find pistol grips to be quite "slow", handling-wise. In between a high-comb Monte Carlo and a thumbhole. Nothing's quicker in my hands that a straight stock.

4. Leerguns are just cool.

--Shannon
 
You guys are great. It looks like I need to seriously consider a handgun cartridge rifle, and I suppose now I should consider the .44 mag as well. Any thoughts on that cartridge in a lever rifle? Please keep the comments coming if you have them, and thanks again.
 
.357 in a carbine can be loaded to .30-30 energy levels. It gains a lot of velocity in a carbine barrel
Click to expand...

No, it can't. It falls about 300+ fps short when using same weight of bullet plus the .357 bullet has a lower BC. The .357 will gain from 400-500 fps in a rifle barrel over the pistol barrel depending on powder and bullet. Using Lil-gun and 158 grain speer JSP's I've pushed the 1900 fps without any problems. Hit them in the boiler room at 100 yards and a deer won't move far if at all with these loads.
 
Ummm.....Yes it can!!!!

This is taken from buffalo bores website. I have personally chronied, there rounds out of my 1894c Marlin, and actually found them to be in some cases hotter than published.

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#357

Make special note of the Marlin 1894, 18.5 inch barrel velocities. Item 19C/20, supercedes 30-30 energies!!!

1. 3 inch S&W J frame

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1302 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC (jacketed hollow cavity) = 1299 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 1398 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 1476 fps

2. 4 inch S&W L frame Mt. Gun

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1375 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr JHC = 1411 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 1485 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 1603 fps

3. 5 inch S&W model 27

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast =1398 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1380 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 1457 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 1543 fps

4. 6 inch Ruger GP 100

a. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 1707 fps

5. 18.5 inch Marlin 1894

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast = 1851 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1860 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 2153 fps---- Can you believe this?!!!
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 2298 fps---- Or this?!!!
 
If plinkin is the main goal I say go with the 38-357, There's something about pistol chamberings in rifles that 'plink" better. Mabye it's the fact that 38's from a rifle can be astoundingly quiet
 
as far as 357 vs 44--the 357 is much more of a *****cat, will use less powder and such and be less loud. For whatever reason, I have found the Marlin 44's to be quite unpleasant to shoot from a recoil standpoint, for some bizarre reason. This was not the case with the 44 mag ruger lever gun I had, and I have heard was not the case with the winny's, so it's some strange quirk with the Marlin's. The Marlin 357's are great though--creampuffs.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

H
  • Locked
A few questions
Replies
1
Views
439
dakotasin
D
1
  • Locked
Marlin .22 WMR bolt action rifles, any good?
Replies
10
Views
16K
joneb
joneb
4
  • Locked
What is the purpose of 22WMR (magnum) rifle?
2
Replies
26
Views
14K
Loic
L
M
  • Locked
.223 Bolt Gun - Best Bang for the buck
2
Replies
26
Views
7K
cratz2
C
T
  • Locked
pistol caliber rifle ballistics, .32-.38-.357
Replies
13
Views
2K
SodaPop
S
Back
Top