357 Magnum - Blue Dot - 125 gr JHP

[OrangePwrx9]

I've read elsewhere that some time in the recent past, Alliant recommended against using Blue Dot for 357 loads with the 125 gr. JHP. Apparently it can damage revolvers. I saw nothing on whether this only applied to maximum loads or the type of damage that occurred.

I could not find this warning in the most recent Alliant reloading manual, but they do NOT list loads for Blue Dot/125JHP for either the 38 Special or the 357 Magnum. Blue Dot loads WERE listed for heavier bullets in both calibers and pretty much across the board in comparable handgun calibers. My old (and new) reloading manuals still list Blue Dot loads with the 125 JHP.

I have several pounds of Blue Dot and a few hundred 125 JHPs. Would like to use all this to make intermediate 357 magnum loads for use in the revolvers and the Marlin 1894 rifle. I'm thinking in the neighborhood of 9 to 10.5 grains of Blue Dot behind the 125 JHP. My books indicate that pressure levels would be little more than 38 +P for these loads.

I'm wondering what the nature of this warning was and whether these reduced loads would get around the problem.

Search didn't come up with anything so, sorry if this has been discussed before.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

Over the years I have shot thousands of Blue Dot 125's....14.0 gr....Never blew up a gun.

Alliant came out with that warning for no good reason. However, I took heed and haven't loaded any since.

 

[Clark]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I do have some experience with 110 gr bullets and Blue Dot.

The max Alliant loads for Blue Dot 110 gr. JHP are:
38 Special, 1.43" OAL, 7.8 gr.
38 Special +P, 1.43" OAL, 8.2 gr.
.357 mag, 1.56" OAL, 16.0 gr.

I was working up a test load in a Colt Agent Aluminum framed 38 Special
with Blue Dot, 110 gr. JHP:
1.43" OAL, 18.4 gr., ok
1.43" OAL, 18.5 gr., bent the frame .01", but still shoots single action.


Update:
Years went by and my brother loaned me a cope of "The Colt Double Action Revolvers: A Shop Manual Volume 1" Book by Jerry Kuhnhausen.
That is an excellent book, and I have now re timed my Colt Agent so it works perfectly in single and double action.

What does it all mean?
Blue Dot is peaky powder. Not as bad as AA#5, but beware.

 

[OrangePwrx9]

Thanks for the insight, Clark, but I'm not sure I can believe my eyes. Do I understand that you put together .38 Spcl. loads that were 10 grs. greater than max. recommended for .38 +P and fired them in an aluminum frame revolver? If so, WOW! That took guts.

I'm wondering if it'll be safe to put Blue Dot .38 +P loads in .357 brass and fire them in a steel framed .357. This seems quite tame compared to what you attempted.

Can anyone provide a link to the original Alliant .357/Blue Dot/125 JHP warning?

 

[NWcityguy2]

http://www.alliantpowder.com/getting_started/safety/safety_notices.aspx

I'm wondering if it'll be safe to put Blue Dot .38 +P loads in .357 brass and fire them in a steel framed .357. This seems quite tame compared to what you attempted.

There is nothing unsafe about that.

 

[Salmoneye]

FWIW, here is a link to the Alliant Blue Dot 'Warning' from 2008:

http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=47935

ADDING:

You beat me to it...

 

[rcmodel]

The way I remember it was, Alliant issued the warning because some of the MAX load data they had published in the past for that .357 load, and all the 41 Magnum loads were found to be over-pressure when using transducer pressure test methods.

It didn't show up with the older copper crusher methods.

rc

 

[jr_watkins]

Orange,

I'd advise against using the BluDot with the 125gr. I loaded up about 400 of them before I read the warning. My load book had the load and it seemed reasonable. I had used BluDot with 158's with great success.

I was putting 13.0 gr BluDot with Rem Small Pistol Mag primers under Remington 125gr HP.

My loads were very inconsistent, varying several 100 FPS on the chronograph and I had random cases stick in my Blackhawk. Primers were starting to flatten on a few, so obviously I was in an overpressure condition.

It seamed like the position of the shell just before firing made a difference. That is, if I pointed the pistol up before leveling on the target the result was a normal discharge. If I pointed the barrel down before leveling on the target the results varied, sometimes resulting in the stuck case and flattened primer. Just an observation.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Clark, how does overloading prove "peakyness". Why don't you just get a good sledgehammer and cut to the chase? Dang, now I'll be skeered to buy any used guns all across the lands. nevermind

 

[rg1]

I've shot 100's of Hornady 125 XTP's with Blue Dot powder in .357 Magnum and my best load was with 13.7 grains. I've worked up to 15 grains but I'd stop before that. I've shot this load in 2 1/2 to 6" barrels. It's very consistent and I've had no problems. Use a good roll crimp on the .357 Mag cases. I used CCI 500 standard primers in RP cases. Velocity was very consistent at about 1260 fps in the 2 1/2" barreled .357 Magnum.
Blue Dot is probably the WORST .38 Special powder that you could possibly use from available charts. Don't use it in .38 Special AT ALL! You'll get wild velocity variations and if you're not careful to get very high bullet tension in the case you can get squib loads and a bullet stuck in the barrel even with published loads. I've seen it happen personally in 2 other loaders .38's. One shooter you could hear the different sound volumes from his .38 and even SEE the bullet in mid-air and some hit the ground just a few yards in front of the shooter. After just a few rounds he did get one stuck in the barrel. Another shooter at the range had similiar problems with Blue Dot in .38 Spec.
Like I said, you need very high bullet tension or the bullet will move enough and create a large volume for the slow powder to burn in, and velocity will vary a LOT and you will get blooper loads. Don't use Blue Dot in .38 Special!!
I wouldn't try for "reduced loads" with Blue Dot but would use 3/4 or higher load data. If you want reduced loads use Unique of equivalent speed powders.

 

[zxcvbob]

I bought a pound of Blue Dot to use with .357 Magnum and 158 grain cast bullets. I never found a load that I liked; the biggest problem was leading (the same amount of pulldown AA#7 powder gave the same performance and better accuracy with no leading)

I also tried Blue Dot in .30 Carbine and got case head separations in a Ruger Blackhawk (it is *not* easy to extract those broken cases wedged tightly in the chambers) Just to use up the last of the powder, I loaded some .45 Colt +P's with 250 grain bullets and 16.5 grains of BD. Those shot wonderfully. I wish I had tried that before wasting so much in .357

 

[OrangePwrx9]

Comparing the post from jr_Watkins with that from rg1, I noticed JR used magnum primers while RG did not. Other than that, the loads appeared comparable.

Could magnum primers be the source of the problems JR saw? Blue Dot's not a ball powder and the 357 case isn't that big. Standard primers should work.

 

[Slamfire]

I would not call any warning by a powder manufacturer bogus, at least this one.

Today’s pressure testing technology is so much better than the days of copper slugs. Today’s pressure testing equipment may have 20 pressure transducers; I have been told they can monitor and measure the primer response in terms of time from hammer strike, flame versus time, pressure, duration, material ejected; these are things that there were only guessed at in previous times.

So, they can real time watch the pressure curve and analyze the sensitivity of the powder with different combinations of bullets, primers, cases.

I called Alliant and asked about why they had dropped certain cartridge combinations, and about Blue Dot in the .223. To start with, they are no longer putting data out for applications that they consider inappropriate. In response to the use of Blue Dot in .223 cartridge, they said they had seen how little changes in reloading components made huge differences in pressure. Which probably explains one Blue Dot blowup, in a rifle cartridge, that the shooter assumed was due to an overload, but could just as likely been due to burn rate instability.

And I guess, that is the same reason they don’t recommend Blue Dot and 125 grain bullets. Something about pressure curves being too variable for them to recommend the powder.

You can still shoot Blue Dots and 158’s.

 

[Clark]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Blue Dot varies a lot at high pressures ~ 75kpsi, but is very consistent at low pressures ~ 35kpsi.

I see this in .223 Blue Dot loads. I shoot thousands of rounds ~ 35kpsi and get ~.5 moa at 3500 fps.

In this picture with 33 gr Vmax moly, I used from left to right 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, and 20 gr Blue Dot.

Notice how it went high pressure at 17 gr, and then was lower at 18 and 19 gr?

I find I can shoot 15 gr all day without problems, but I want nothing to do with the erratic pressure signs I saw at 17 gr in a hunting load.

 

[Slamfire]

Notice how it went high pressure at 17 gr, and then was lower at 18 and 19 gr

That is a very interesting picture, but without pressure gages, you really don't why your apparent pressures seem lower at 18 and 19.

Pressure averages follow a bell curve and there are extreme spreads. Maybe your individual test rounds at 18 to 19 grains just happened to be on the low end of that curve, but then next ones could have been average or on the high end of the curve.

 

[Clark]

That sample is small, but I have shot many more of 18 gr, half are 4100 fps and no pressure change, and half are 4200 fps and up to .010" of extractor groove growth.

But if I stay at 15 gr, where the chono agrees with QL, that predicts 35,000 psi, I get very good results; accuracy, clean barrel, and a cool barrel up to 100 shots per hour. The draw back is low case fill combined with possible hang ups in the powder measure. Each case must be checked for case fill.

 

[rg1]

It's been a long time ago but the one test I did comparing CCI 500 standard versus CCI 550 magnum primers with 13.7 grains of Blue Dot, same lot of powder, same lot of bullets, loaded at the same time, showed the standard primers giving best uniform velocity spread. Don't know if it could be repeated or if it was just a fluke, but the standard primer had about 10 fps spread while the magnum primer went from 1225-1309 fps. Standard primers were from 1250-1260 fps. Only 3 shots each thru an Oehler 35P Chronograph. Temperature was approx. 75 degrees. Other loads tested by me that day with the CCI 550 mag primer with higher charges gave 30-65 fps variance. Still not bad with the mag primers in a short barrel pistol. Your results may differ.

 

[Walkalong]

Blue Dot varies a lot at high pressures ~ 75kpsi, but is very consistent at low pressures ~ 35kpsi.

I see this in .223 Blue Dot loads. I shoot thousands of rounds ~ 35kpsi and get ~.5 moa at 3500 fps.

In this picture with 33 gr Vmax moly, I used from left to right 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, and 20 gr Blue Dot.

Notice how it went high pressure at 17 gr, and then was lower at 18 and 19 gr?

I find I can shoot 15 gr all day without problems, but I want nothing to do with the erratic pressure signs I saw at 17 gr in a hunting load.

But if I stay at 15 gr, where the chono agrees with QL, that predicts 35,000 psi, I get very good results; accuracy, clean barrel, and a cool barrel up to 100 shots per hour. The draw back is low case fill combined with possible hang ups in the powder measure. Each case must be checked for case fill.

Have you checked this load powder forward vs powder back? The only primer I have blown severely was with a charge of Blue Dot that was fine powder back, but blew the heck out of the primer powder forward.

 

[Steve C]

Blue Dot data for the .357 mag with all bullet weights was published for at least 20 years before Alliant recommended not using it with 125gr loads. Published data varied quite a bit though with maximum loads usually in the 14.5gr level but some manuals listing 16+ grs as maximum.

I've loaded the .357 mag with 125gr JHP's behind 13.8grs of BD lit with CCI or Federal magnum pistol primers for years and continue to do so with the powder that I have. This load duplicates the average 1,450 fps velocity from my 4" revolvers with expected variations due to different firearm, equivalent to the "full power" factory loads as published by Remington, Federal and Winchester. Accuracy is very good with this load and it demonstrates no signs of high pressure.

Shortly after Alliant recommended against using BD with the 125gr bullet in the .357 mag I had a discussion with an Alliant representative at the NRA convention and asked him specifically about the issue. He told me that they had erratic pressures with a current lot of Blue Dot they had tested with the 125gr .357 mag so they put out the recommendation against its use. I discussed my load and results using BD and he said if its working for me with the powder I have then there's really no reason to stop using the load.

Blue Dot has been known to produce erratic and high pressures in cold weather, rather the opposite of most powders who's pressure increase with higher temps and lower with colder. If you live in a cold climate I wouldn't use ammo loaded with Blue dot in below freezing weather. Not an issue for me living in the AZ desert.

BD is also a decent powder for the 9mm.

 

[Clark]

Walkalong

Have you checked this load powder forward vs powder back? The only primer I have blown severely was with a charge of Blue Dot that was fine powder back, but blew the heck out of the primer powder forward.

No, never in my life have I worried about gravity before shooting.

And as I was typing my previous post I started worrying about my reloading process and the powder measure being more erratic than Blue Dot burn rate.

And I make fun of OTHER people with out of control independent variables

 

[Walkalong]

Powder position can make a great deal of difference, and gravity has nothing to do with it. I thought you would give a serious answer. Guess not.

 

[MAG-63]

I got into a bit of a debate (and roundly lambasted) over this very issue on another forum just recently. I have loaded well over 1000 rounds using the 125g JHP and older published data from Hercules/Alliant (and from the Speer #11 Manual). I have found them to be powerful, accurate, and they have given NO pressure signs. I have fired them from Smith 65s 66s, 686, and a Model 27. They may be a bit much for a K-frame, but I have no worries about using them in an N-frame, Ruger Blackhawk, or other large-framed revolver. YMMV

 

[FROGO207]

I use a lot of blue dot in 357, 38 SPL, and 45 ACP with zero problems. I however never use it with anything lighter than 158 grains in 38 caliber ammo so have never experienced this problem. I have shot really light Blue Dot loads in 30 Carbine (.7CC--110 GR LRN) for a Ruger SBH with no problems to date.

CAUTION THE ABOVE LOAD MAY CAUSE PROBLEMS USE WITH EXTREME CAUTION.

 

[Clark]

Today, 12:34 PM #21
Walkalong

Powder position can make a great deal of difference, and gravity has nothing to do with it.

I have done all my shooting in earth's gravitational field, where the hysteretic memory of tilt toward the earth determines loose powder position.

I doubt you in outer space.

 

[Walkalong]

I guess you never shoot downhill.

Anyway, powder position can make a difference. Quite a bit in some applications. I would think an experimenter like your self would be curious about it, but I guess you only like to play with excess pressures.