357 Magnum Wadcutter Development - Bone Crusher

[Mr.Revolverguy]

Many before me have discussed 38 special wadcutter it’s accuracy and it’s ability to be a crusher. Ed Harris documented the effects of the DEWC (full wadcutter) in 38 special very well for us to reflect upon all of it’s goodness.

This got me to thinking if it was this good and still yet very capable today would it not be better in 357 Magnum? Only one problem stood in my way. I could not find one manufacturer producing 357 Magnum Full Wadcutter today. With the popularity of this round surely there would be loads documented some where for the reloading addict like myself. Google enters here, sure there are a lot of people talking about it but nothing well documented. As a matter of fact some of the loads that was documented is downright scary. I searched hi and low and nothing I would trust, most amazing I could not find any type of load even in reloading manuals dating back to the 80’s. This lack of data inspired me and started me on this journey to create Mr.Revolverguy’s 357 Magnum Bone Crusher.

Being a user of Quickload Ballistics for 5 years or more now and with about 4 loading manuals sprawled across my desk I knew I had all the right tools to be successful in my mission.

This is my first test of this load to chronograph the recipe and get velocity numbers.

Test number two will most likely be testing in ballistics gelatin.

I am also taking suggestions of other test that can be safely completed to prove out Mr.Revolverguy’s 357 Magnum Bone Crusher.

The loads utilized in this video was operated safely but should not be used in your firearm without loading down by 10% and working up. If you elect to utilize any of this data it is at your own risk, you take full ownership and responsibility for your ammunition.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Here’s some really old data from Phillip Sharpe (1937). Take for what it’s worth, but it does have .357 magnum Wadcutter data.

 

[FROGO207]

My only worry would be if the plating was sufficient to withstand the 357 pressures in the barrel. If I was going to try it I would get some gas checks and use lead wad cutters in the 12 BHN range for the expansion factor. I will be watching this with interest.

 

[Riomouse911]

Ya, a plated DEWC at .3585 - .359 with a gas check may be just the ticket for true magnum velocity WC loads.

I’ll bet they hit hard and penetrate a bear or hog like crazy (prolly too much penetration against 2-legged crooks, tho).

Stay safe.

 

[ATLDave]

Most plated bullets are very, very soft. Regardless of shape, they're going to flatten dramatically if driven to magnum velocities. If you're looking for penetration and hard-tissue crushing capacity, I don't think you'll do much better with a plated DEWC than with a plated SWC or even a plated RN. I would expect them all to just "splat" when they hit a significant mass. Doesn't mean they wouldn't be lethal in most circumstances, just that I don't think you'd get any special performance in terms of "bonecrushing."

I am a fan of plated WC's in .357 cases for fun target/plinking loads.

 

[Texas10mm]

Lead alloy in the 11-12 BHN range is all one needs....as long as the fit is correct. That's the same hardness of lead that Elmer Keith used to develop the .44 Mag.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

I have to agree that a wadcutter in the 12BHN range is all that should be required.

I am running a Lee tumble lube bullet at just under 1300 fps in a 357 Mag. Tumble lubed, no gas check, no leading.
This with 50/50 CWW/Pb, and 45.45.10 lube.

 

[deadeye dick]

I buy my wadcutters from Georgia Arms in the state of Georgia.They are 18 BHN and shoot great in my Blackhawk. They also have HBWC .

 

[gotboostvr]

As I understood it, part of the reason this was never popular was that wadcutters lose stability and accuracy at higher velocities.

 

[Mr.Revolverguy]

This is what I understood also gotboostvr Ed Harris actually documented that past 50 yards at high velocity things started to tumble. I wanted to better understand it but since I could not find load data decided to come up with my own. Next will be to see how it shoots at 25 yards from rest depending on how that goes maybe out to 50 yards and possibly beyond. Hooda thanks for the tip on 12BHN I actually thought it would be a tad bit soft and cause leading. I know most casting companies are casting 18bhn for 357Magnum velocities.

 

[Eddietruett]

I use the 180gr "Pugnose" Coated Lead from Missouri Bullets out of my long tube Mod 686. Step it up with a full load of H110 or 2400 and it will do all you want on a Hog within reasonable range. With MV of around 1350fps it will break a shoulder at 50 yards. That is the longest I limit myself with a Revolver. Out of a Lever Action, I would not hesitate to go up to 75 yards. The nose is almost as flat as a wadcutter with just a little taper and they will shoot very accurate. Easy to get a 3-4" Group at 75 Yards with a 8 3/8" Barrel with a red dot tube and off a rest of course. https://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=214&category=20&secondary=10 . They also make a more rounded nose version but the flat nose shoots the best out of my guns.

 

[Riomouse911]

That MBC 180 grain slug looks like a real doozy in the .357 magnum, I may grab some for rifle loads myself.

Stay safe.

 

[forrest r]

I have a Mihec 4-cavity mold that casts 148gr hbcw's or 175gr wc's. The 175gr wc's thump pretty good with hot loads in the longer bbl'd 357's (6" bbl or longer).

A link to the lyman cast handbook 3rd edition 1980
http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Man...et Handbook - 3rd Edition - 1980 - Reduce.pdf

In it you'll find 385495 wc loads for the 357's.

I couldn't even begin to count how many 148gr wc's I've shot over the decades owning/casting my own with h&g #50 10-cavity & 6-cavity molds along with lymans 358495 & 358063 molds.

IMHO:
Harris gets quoted way too much and the wc load/bullet in the snubnosed 38spl overrated. While they are impressive in the 357's with hot loads I use a 170gr fn bullet anymore. Hit's just as hard, better penetration & and stays accurate at distances the wc could only dream of.

 

[Mr.Revolverguy]

forrest r thank you man those 158's look nice great job. Your statement is one of the reason I want to try and test what's your take on how stable the WC will be at distance? or at what distance does stability fall apart?

 

[horsemen61]

Ttrl

 

[CraigC]

"Full wadcutter" and "bone crusher" are mutually exclusive concepts. The problem with wadcutters is that they are barely stable in flight. When they encounter something more dense than air, like say living tissue or bones, they absolutely do not track straight. So no, they are not going to penetrate very well at all. The LBT WFN and WLN designs with a meplat of around 80% come the closest to a wadcutter profile but the nose shape is what makes them track straight in flesh. If wadcutters were that great for anything but paper out to 50yds, we'd already be using them.

 

[IlikeSA]

Penn bullets makes a 230 grain wad cutter for 38+p, rated to 900 fps. I've never tried them myself. There is load data on that page for it too.

 

[forrest r]

forrest r thank you man those 158's look nice great job. Your statement is one of the reason I want to try and test what's your take on how stable the WC will be at distance? or at what distance does stability fall apart?

Thank you for that.

I've never gotten then to stabilize much past 50yds but then again I'm using 1 in 18 twist & 1 in 18.75 twists. I have a couple 1 in 10 twist bbl.'s I could use to test them with. But I really don't see the need with those 158gr/170gr fn's performing so well.

As craig c said they become marginally stable at distance. A good test is to use bundles of wetpack, I use them all the time. Take newspaper and tape it together into 12" bundles. Put the standing up in a 48qt cooler & fill the cooler with bundles. Then fill the cooler with water and let it sit for 3 or 4 hours and then add more water. Let it sit overnight and take the whole thing to the range. Pull a bundle out and set it @ 50ft and put targets on it and do several test loads. Move out to 25yds and re-test, then 50yds and re-test. Finely 75yds and re-test.

I like to use wetpack, it's been said that 1 inch of wetpack is equal to 1 1/2" of ballistics gel. I don't know about all that but at least I have something to go by when testing the difference between close range and distances. What I really like about wetpack is you can pull the bundle apart and not only measure the depth of penetration. You can see the bullets orientation, IE, pointing forward/tumbling sideways/backwards/ect.


The bullets in the picture above were home swaged 150gr hp's made out of range scrap lead for cores and 9mm cases. Since then I use the longer 9mm cases for 170gr fh's and 380acp cases for the 150gr hp's. That was a hot 1300fps +/- test load @ 50ft using a 4" bbl'd 357, the 2 slugs on to of the bundle blew out the back of the 12" bundle. They shed their jackets, that why I switched over to the shorter 380acp cases.


On a side note:
I did do a little testing with home swaged jacketed hbwc's using 9mm cases in a snubnosed 38spl. I did test loads using those swaged/jacketed hbwc's along with using those 158gr cast fn hp's from the post above that are known performers. The 38spl's

The 44spl's, a cast 220gr cast hbwc turned backwards, a cast 245gr keith hp swc & swaged/jacketed hbwc's made from range lead and 40s&w cases.. They were tested in a snubnosed 44spl.


I bonded the cores in those jacketed hbwc's, this is what the recovered bullets looked like.


As with the wc's they held their own @ close ranges, start taking them out to 50yds and beyond. Not so much.

Looking forward to your tests & pictures are always an added bonus.

 

[PapaG]

One of my favorite wad cutter loads is the old Lyman 358432, a 160 grain full wadcutter with two grease grooves and a crimp groove. Nose sits a quarter inch out of the case. Absolutely great for accuracy in every 38/357 I've tried it in. 3 b.e. in 38 and a little stiffer load of unique in 357. Have not tried anything very hot but why? 160 at 900 fps is pretty good out of a 3".

 

[Jesse Heywood]

Don't try this at home, kids.
IMR listed a 148 gr. with 4227, 15.0 C at 1,185 fps at 32,700 CUP. I used with a 148 WC Magnus 18 BHN moderate recoil with good accuracy in a S&W 686, 6" bbl.

I had another load that listed nearly 1,500 fps that I loved, but cannot find in my records.

 

[labnoti]

Berry's makes plated HBWC and DEWC bullets. They use the same alloy and plating as they do on all their .357" bullets and they're listed as good to 1250fps. With a 148 grains, that's a lot hotter than any .38 Special, and it's doubtful a short-barreled (<4") .357 Magnum could send them that fast within peak pressure limits if they were seated flush with the case mouth.

Practically speaking, when you have the velocity to use a hollowpoint, it will do a better job in almost every job there is. I'm sure someone could think of an exception, but it will be just that.

 

[joneb]

Practically speaking, when you have the velocity to use a hollowpoint, it will do a better job in almost every job there is. I'm sure someone could think of an exception, but it will be just that.

The title of the thread should give a clue,
357 Magnum Wadcutter Development - Bone Crusher
This is a load that may be useful against four legged critters.

 

[Bfh_auto]

I use the 180gr "Pugnose" Coated Lead from Missouri Bullets out of my long tube Mod 686. Step it up with a full load of H110 or 2400 and it will do all you want on a Hog within reasonable range. With MV of around 1350fps it will break a shoulder at 50 yards. That is the longest I limit myself with a Revolver. Out of a Lever Action, I would not hesitate to go up to 75 yards. The nose is almost as flat as a wadcutter with just a little taper and they will shoot very accurate. Easy to get a 3-4" Group at 75 Yards with a 8 3/8" Barrel with a red dot tube and off a rest of course. https://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=214&category=20&secondary=10 . They also make a more rounded nose version but the flat nose shoots the best out of my guns.

They also make a 180WFN. It's very close to a wadcutter. I got the same accuracy as I did with the pugnose.

 

[Rule3]

What, if any advantage is there to a Full Wad cutter vs a regular hard cast Flat Nose bullet?? (like a 180 gr FN)

 

[ATLDave]

Ugh, seems to be some confusion here about the hardness and plated bullet velocity ratings. There are two completely separate reasons to care about hardness: internal ballistics (stuff happening inside the gun) and terminal ballistics (stuff happening on/inside the target during impact). Leading is an internal ballistic concern. Plating failure is an internal ballistic concern (which then influences external ballistics - stuff happening to the bullet in flight). The latter is what the velocity rating on things like Berry's plated bullets is addressing... plating failure in the rifling.

None of that has anything to do with whether the bullet's construction is sufficiently tough to do any special level of "bonecrushing." It may be possible to drive plated wadcutters pretty hard (and I may have done that myself!!) without the accuracy going to hell, but that has nothing to do with whether the bullet is going to splat on impact rather than punch through.