.357 or 38 special?

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themachine

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Is there any reason I should get a .357 over a 38 special? Other than the 357 being able to shoot both rounds.

Are the 38+P rounds comparable to 357? This will be used for CC/personal defense.

I like the option of shooting both rounds with the 357 but is that reason enough to go with one? Enlighten me!
 
A .357 will allow you to shoot .357s and .38s A .38 will only allow you to
shoot .38s.

You can target shoot with .38s to save money and home defence with .357s
to save your arse.

The extra money spent on a .357 will not be regretted. No one ever said "I wish I shot him with a smaller round".
 
I agree with Working Man.


You've gotta see the real stopping power of a .357 to appreciate it. Shooting normal whitebox .38's is like shooting a .22...it's a baby compared to the .357. I shoot .38's just plinking, or light .357 handloads, but when I load that thing up with some hot JHP handloads, it's a monster.
 
The .38 Special +P rounds of today are anemic compared to "standard" but hotter rounds of yesterday. A factory +P won't come close to a .357 Magnum round.

Which to buy depends upon what size revolver you are buying and why you are buying it.
 
I've heard that the 357 has a tendency to overpenetrate?

and is the 38 a capable defense round?
 
Which to buy depends upon what size revolver you are buying and why you are buying it.

If you need small, an SP101 should fit the bill for almost anyone and still give them options.
 
If you hit what you aim at I wouldn't worry too much about over penetration. As for the .38 Special being a capable defensive round, I bet my life on it every day. Over the past 20 years there has been so much advancement in bullet design and better powders coming online that the .38 Special is going to be around for a long time, IMO of course.

What size revolver are you looking for? If it's a light J frame I would stay away from .357 Magnums for sure. If you are looking at something a little larger or heavier there's nothing wrong with a .357 Magnum. I carry Magnum ammo in my M640 and .38 Special +P ammo in my M642.
 
yeah, i'm looking for a lighter frame as I will be wearing it for long hours.
I've got a Ruger LCP 380 but I've
discovered that i'm more comfortable carrying a revolver as a backup.
 
In a lightweight snubby such as the S&W airweight series the .357 is very harsh to shoot and admittedly causes me to flinch a little. No doubt the .357 is superior to the .38+p, but a somewhat heavier gun is almost necessary to help mitigate the recoil.
 
My two bits' worth:

1. If you are going to carry routinely, then you probably really want a lightweight--say a j-frame, in any of the popular iterations.

2. short-barreled revolvers are difficult to shoot well, so you need to practice a lot.

3. The practice will help to strengthen your hand.

4. In self-defense scenarios, shot placement is more important than "stopping power."

5. 38+P ammo has about the maximum recoil a person wants to shoot routinely in a lightweight revolver.

6. If you are willing to carry a heavier gun--for example, the 640 or a Ruger SP101, then one can consider .357 Magnum rounds.

Personally, I carry either one of two scandium-framed j-frames: A 38/357 M&P340, or a 38+P S&W 360. In either gun, I carry either the GDSB 38+P 135-gr JHP round or the 38+P "FBI round"--a 158-gr. LSWC-HP.

Jim H.
 
few questions, 1 what will the revolver most likely be? If it is going to be something along the lines of the M&P340, I suggest passing. For nearly half the price, the 642/442 will do the job. A number of police and firearm store employees that I have talked to, do not tend to put many more round through their guns (at least in .357). They wish they had saved some cash and just bought the above revolver. Too much power in too light of a gun. Maybe you're tough enough to want to shoot'em, I'd rather take their advice as .38's have taken down a lot of people over the years.
 
If your need of it is for personal defense I would go with the .38spl+P. Most .357mag revolvers are a little beefier and will add mass and weight to your carry. As far as ammunition goes, the .357magnum is more versitile if you wish to hunt and shoot through barriers, but the .38spl would be more ideal for defense. It is more controllable and has less blast and flash. As far as terminal effects go, against a human target which has an average torso depth of 9" from front to back, you really gain no advantage in using .357magnum.

The .357magnum earned its “manstopper” reputation in the early days of hollow point design which was from about the late 1960s to the late 1980s. During that time period ammunition manufactures tested their hollow point designs in water tanks. Water does not compress. So, when a hollow point bullet impacts a hydraulic substance the water that is constantly being fed into nose of the bullet as it penetrates must escape at the weakest point of resistance. That weakest point is along the sides of the hollow point. So, the hydraulic force opens up the hollow point and causes the mushrooming effect. The problem with the water tank testing is that human tissue is not 100% water. So, the hydraulic forces involved in shooting a person are weaker than that of a water tank. This problem was very evident with lower velocity loads such as heavier bullet weights in 9mm, .38spl, .357mag, and .45acp. The poor engineering behind these early hollow points made for unreliable performance unless you cranked up the velocity of the bullets and used lighter bullet weights(this of course led shallow penetration characteristics with the 9mm and directly to the deaths of two FBI agents in 1986). In this time, the .357magnum was the ideal cartridge because it had the velocity to open up these poorly designed early hollow points and still have deep penetration.

In the 1987 FBI Wound Ballistics Workshop various calibers and ammunition types were tested and this problem was exposed to the ammunition industry. Since then, ammunition manufacturers started testing their hollow point designs in ballistic gel which more accurately mimics the density, elasticity, consistency, and water percentage of human tissue. With a more accurate model to standardize their ammunition by, calibers like the .357magnum and .357sig simply offer no measurable advantage over calibers like the .40S&W and .45acp which enter the body bigger, penetrate to ideal depths, and expand to larger diameters with consistent reliability in actual shootings. Also, the 9mm is capable of damaging more tissue and penetrating commonly encountered barriers better than the .357sig due to its ability to use longer, heavier bullet weights such as the 147gr bullet. The .357magnum can be loaded with much heavier bullets like the 158gr and 180gr, so it offers better capabilities over the 9mm should you wish to hunt or shoot through barriers.

The law enforcement trend in the 1970s was to move towards the .357magnum because it seemed to do better in the field over the 9mm, .38spl, and .45acp. As I mentioned above, it performed MUCH more reliably with early hollow points and actually expanded to a diameter greater than that of any of the other calibers. So, it damaged more “stuff”. There was none of the mythical energy dump, or other assumed effects to the body that were a result of impact energy, pressure wave, or neurological shock. With the technological advances in bullet designs in the last 20years, things have changed. The law enforcement trend of today focuses on the big three calibers which are the 9mm, .40S&W, and the .45acp…….very distant is the .357magnum and its auto clone the .357sig. Not only that, but the trend in ammunition use favors heavier bullet weights which penetrate more deeply and reliably than the light and fast, high kinetic energy bullets. Equipment trend is a direct result of measurable and observable results.

Unfortunately, ammo manufacturers are not producing as big of a variety of defensive loads for revolver cartriges as they do auto cartridges. A very good performing .38spl load which does well both in longer barrels and short snub nose barrels is the Speer Gold Dot .38spl 135gr+P. Here's some fired from a 2" barrel:

.38 Sp Speer 135 gr +P JHP Gold Dot (53921), average velocity=856f/s

Bare Gel: penetration=13.1”, recovered diameter=0.56”, recovered weight=134.5gr
Through 4 layers denim: penetration=13.6”, recovered diameter=0.53”, recovered weight=134.1gr
Through auto windshield: penentration=9.4”, recovered diameter=0.51”, recovered weight=129.6gr


Take into account what the bullet actually does to things, not what its advertized velocity is.
 
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I always recommend a .357 to people looking to buy their very first handgun. Mainly because of the versatility described here with its ability to shoot .38spl for practice, and then defend the castle with the cannons. BUT, for concealed carry, your looking to have as small a gun as you feel comfortable with, and if it is a .357, you probably won't want to shoot those in it at all, so the .38spl would be the way to go, but at least get a +P capable gun.

And, I agree, the .38spl has a long well documented history of stopping bad guys in their tracks. Just practice until you feel confident in your gun.
 
and is the 38 a capable defense round?

It most certainly is. Given good ammo and proper shot placement, of course. The same can be said of .357 Magnum. People get hung up on ft-lbs of energy, muzzle velocity, energy transfer, etc etc. If that is all you look at, then 38 Special appears to be weak. Some loads are, but 38 is often underestimated as a defensive caliber, much the way 9mm and 22LR are. When we are talking about most handgun cartridges, there just isn't that much energy available to make a difference as far as tissue damage is concerned, IMO. At rifle velocities, perhaps. But not most handgun bullets.

I prefer 38+P to 357 Magnum as I am a bit more accurate with 38, even in my heavy S&W 686. Follow up shots are also noticeably easier for me with 38. So I stick to 38 and don't have a problem with it. As for felt recoil, there are a number of folks here who don't mind 357 Mag in a sub 15oz revolver. I think that perhaps their hands are made of depleted uranium. It has been said that to get idea for what a 12 oz 357 Magnum feels like, just pop the hood of your car, place your hand on or near the latch, and slam the hood as hard as you can :eek: .

I frequently carry a 15 oz S&W 642 in 38+P (17.1 oz loaded). The recoil is brisk, but not unbearable IMHO. Since I'd never fire 357 in such a compact gun, I didn't see the need to spend the extra money on one. Plus, IIRC S&W 357 J Frames are slightly larger and heavier than their 38s. BTW, IMO the S&W x42 makes an excellent carry gun, backup or primary. For pocket carry, I prefer either an enclosed or shrouded hammer revolver under 20 oz loaded. The Ruger SP101 is a nice gun, but in my pocket it tended to flail about much more than the lighter 642 (I tried them in the gunshop before I purchased). For me, the SP101 makes more sense as a belt gun. My 642 has been reliable, it is simple to operate, fairly easy to pocket carry and capable of surprising accuracy if I do my part.

There are a number of excellent 38 Special loads out there. Just do some research on penetration ability, as there are some 38 loads out there that have sub-par penetration performance (ie, less than 8" in balistics gell). The 135 grn Speer GoldDot 38+P JHP has been mentioned, and is an excellent choice. The +P 110 grain Corbon DPX is another great option, especially as a reload because the small, tapered bullets are easier to line up with the charge holes than other rounds. I personally prefer the time-tested "FBI Load", specifically the Remington Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollowpoint (LSCWHP) 158 grain +P (R38S12). This is one of the older hollowpoints that Marcus speaks of, but it is one of the good ones. It usually opens up reliably while still meeting the FBI's 12" penetration minimum. Even from a snubbie. Both my 686 and 642 are loaded with this round, though 125 grain DoubleTap +P JHPs are used as reloads as they are slightly easier to line up with the chambers using a speedloader than the big fat lead 158s. Heck, if felt recoil is an issue, you can always carry good quality 148 grain wadcutters. They may not expand, but they achieve more than enough penetration and are relatively easy on the hand.
 
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themachine,
Since you are telling us this will be a backup handgun I would suggest buying a M442. It's a no-snag J frame chambered for .38 Special +P with a Blue/Black finish. (same as the M642 except for the finish) It's also available in a no-lock model too.
 
most of the reloads i have done for my s&w mod 27 are in .38 special cases.. i love shooting the 38s through my large frame .357 magnum revolver...... easier on me and easier on the gun........
 
+1 on .38

I have to second jad here. I have a deep, fraternal love for my security six, but the only way I'd want to carry it around all day is in a Sam Browne.

It does have a certain "crap your pants factor," though, so I keep it in the nightstand :D
 
My pop had a .38 when I was a kid. I never found the gun, but I did see the bullets every now and again and for some reason I have a very very soft spot for the .38 round. If it was good enough for my dad, it is good enough for me.
 
Is there any reason I should get a .357 over a 38 special? Other than the 357 being able to shoot both rounds.
That's precisely the reason to get a .357.

That having been said, depending upon WHY you want a revolver, you might want just a .38. I have a S&W Model 14 in .38 Special. It's a bullseye target revolver. I don't even come anywhere near the potential of .38 Special in it. It's just for punching paper, although it will shoot .38 Special +Ps Likewise my Model 36. It's more than effective enough with 158gr. LWSC-HP +Ps. .357s in similar gun would just hurt to shoot.

On the other hand, I would never hunt deer with a .38 Special, even were it legal here. That's one reason why I have a 6" Model 27.
 
Oh me...At 5' 7" and 145 lbs I have no problem hiding a "K" frame S&W Mod 19 on my person. All it takes is the proper holster and cover garment.

I believe you answered your own question when you said you would like to be able to shoot both. Although I wouldn't consider a .357 magnum as a back up for a .380...I would make the .357 magnum the primary...Hell. What am I talkin' about...I don't even carry a backup.

.38 Special +P is a capable round though the .357 magnum is far superior to the .38 Special +P. And in a short barrel revolver the .357 magnum penetration is a bit less then from a 4" barrel.
 
.357 magnum, always

Yes, get the .357 magnum. There's a much wider variety of ammo you can use. You have the power of the .357 available when you want to use it.

For myself, I carry Ruger SP101, ss, 2 1/4", 5 or 6 days out of seven.
On the other days, I'll be carrying a Ruger GP100, ss, 3".
I carry them both with .357 magnum loads. The SP101 is 26 oz.; the GP100 is 36 oz. I carry in Galco, OSWB, open-top, HR pancake holsters.
Nope, the recoil does not bother me. I practice enough to hit what I shoot at.

Yes, police departments for years, and a lot of old timers, carried .38 specials.
Then there was a huge shift to the .357 magnum, because of the power factor. I think It started with the FBI & Border Patrol.
I carried a .38 awhile. I switched to a .45acp Colt Commander for a few years.
IMHO, you will prob'ly carry a few sidearms before you settle on one or the other, whatever you start with.
Most of us do. G'd Luck!
 
Then there was a huge shift to the .357 magnum, because of the power factor. I think It started with the FBI & Border Patrol.

The shift you refer to is described in my post above......much of it referenced from Dr. Fackler and MacPherson literature. Both the FBI and ICE now use .40S&W pistols with lower velocity, heavier 180gr bullets and have had excellent success with it.

"Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet."

Urey Patrick "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness."


There is really no measurable advantage in using the .357magnum over the .38spl unless you want to use it as a hunting rig with heavier bullets for penetration of larger game up to 15-25".
 
I'm gonna go a different direction on this. It seems I read posts from a lot of guys with 357s who load them with 38+p for CCW because of the controllability & lower flash. Enough that I would recommend going with a S&W 642 or 442.
 
I carry a GP100 with hot .357 and have no issues taking it to the range and shooting through 300-500 rounds on any given day. I personally would get the .357 just for the ability to shoot both the .38s and the .357. Take it out with a box of each and decide what ya like.
Have also shot a j-frame .357 snubby at smith and wesson while in MA. Even though it is a small light weight gun..I fired about 100 rounds through it. It wasn't terrible, I like recoil though.
Good luck to you, I know it took me a while to find my first carry pistol.

Caryn
 
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