.357 SIG vs. 40 cal
- Thread starter giles
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Like any weapon, when you start modifying the original design (G17), you tend to lose a certain degree of reliability--the G19 (and to a lesser extent the G26) are prime examples.
That being said, the 357 SIG really offers no feed reliability advantage over the 9x19 (which is BTW, a tapered design), and in fact, as previously noted, the bottle-neck design (and particularly as implemented by SIG) has its own set of reliability problems.
The first and foremost, as noted by PAT and others, is a tendency to nose-dive. The tendency can be exacerbated by several factors including mildly weakened magazine springs (which would still work with any other cartridge) and dirty magazines, (or dirty, dusty, sandy conditions--no matter how assiduously you maintain your magazines--probably PAT's problem in the Yukon Delta). Other reliability issues with the 357 SIG include: (1) lack of case neck tension (particularly a design problem of the 357 SIG--the case neck is just plain too short); (3) the need to "headspace" in two places on the case mouth and on the case shoulder (again, a design problem--bottle-neck cartridges should headspace on the shoulder and not the case mouth); (4) that funnel shaped chamber which is so good at "catching" .36 calibre bullets is also well suited for catching debris which remains in the chamber instead of falling out the barrel--the old .40+ calibre in but .36- calibre out trick.
The problem with the 357 SIG (and the .40 S&W) is they are both compromise rounds--an attempt to force performance into a 9x19 size platform instead of going to the logical step and designing an intermediate size weapon (between the 9x19 size platform and the 10mm/.45 ACP size platform)--much like the S&W L-frame and Ruger GP100 which fall between the K-frame and N-frame (or Rehawk) size.
The good news is that finally, the 9x19 is being optimized to provide performance which is at the very least equal to the 357 SIG while still maintaining all the advantages of 9x19 (low muzzle flip/blast, high-capacity and feed-reliability). The 357 SIG may have been a good round in its time, but it has definitely been OBE'd (overcome by events).
That being said, the 357 SIG really offers no feed reliability advantage over the 9x19 (which is BTW, a tapered design), and in fact, as previously noted, the bottle-neck design (and particularly as implemented by SIG) has its own set of reliability problems.
The first and foremost, as noted by PAT and others, is a tendency to nose-dive. The tendency can be exacerbated by several factors including mildly weakened magazine springs (which would still work with any other cartridge) and dirty magazines, (or dirty, dusty, sandy conditions--no matter how assiduously you maintain your magazines--probably PAT's problem in the Yukon Delta). Other reliability issues with the 357 SIG include: (1) lack of case neck tension (particularly a design problem of the 357 SIG--the case neck is just plain too short); (3) the need to "headspace" in two places on the case mouth and on the case shoulder (again, a design problem--bottle-neck cartridges should headspace on the shoulder and not the case mouth); (4) that funnel shaped chamber which is so good at "catching" .36 calibre bullets is also well suited for catching debris which remains in the chamber instead of falling out the barrel--the old .40+ calibre in but .36- calibre out trick.
The problem with the 357 SIG (and the .40 S&W) is they are both compromise rounds--an attempt to force performance into a 9x19 size platform instead of going to the logical step and designing an intermediate size weapon (between the 9x19 size platform and the 10mm/.45 ACP size platform)--much like the S&W L-frame and Ruger GP100 which fall between the K-frame and N-frame (or Rehawk) size.
The good news is that finally, the 9x19 is being optimized to provide performance which is at the very least equal to the 357 SIG while still maintaining all the advantages of 9x19 (low muzzle flip/blast, high-capacity and feed-reliability). The 357 SIG may have been a good round in its time, but it has definitely been OBE'd (overcome by events).
Tried differend kinds of ammo and putting in extra power mag spings. The problem seldom came up when I was shooting 2 handed. It usually surfaced in the weak hand portion of the qualification. It was probably limp wristing. But thats a hard problem to cure with your weak hand. But the problem was more pronounced with the 33 apparenty becuase my other autos gave me no problem weak handed. Bottle neck rounds are suseptible to nose dive malfunctions. My 31 has not given me a problem either. I plan on getting a 26.
Pat
Pat
JC2 actually I have seen nose dives due to limp wristing because the slide is cycling fast on these small guns and its not going as far back as it normally would when it grabs the next round. And not having sufficient energy to push it up into the chamber it catches on the feed ramp. Its a difficult malfunciton to clear one handed with your weak hand. (I have a rule if I am shooting strong or weak handed and get a malfunciton I clear it one handed.)
I have also seen pistols not go completely into battery from limp wristing.
Pat
I have also seen pistols not go completely into battery from limp wristing.
Pat
I'm looking at a .357 sig for a hunting backup / finishing gun just because I think a high penetrating jacketed flat point might just be the ticket. The fact that it comes in 9mm sized packages is a definite plus. The .40 to me doesn't do anything significantly better (or worse) than 9's or .45's to peak my interest. That being said, I'll probably get another one eventually.
Coffee
Coffee
gabeodog
Member
I like them both. .40 is cheaper. but .357 is more Peppy. Plus more fun to shoot. I think anyway.
cratz2
Member
Call me Mr Overkill but if I were specifically seeking a finishing gun, I'd personally seek out a 41 or 44 Magnum... Something I could legitimately hunt with in it's own right.
Of if wanting a pistol, maybe a 10mm and use full loads in it.
Of if wanting a pistol, maybe a 10mm and use full loads in it.
Hey "Mr. Overkill" 
,
Just think plastic / alluminum is lighter and more weather resistant. Not arguing that more power is generally better. The full sized autos (most 10mm's) just don't fit me right. The most serious competition to the .357 Sig for my uses would probably be a 3" J-frame .357 Mag. In the auto cartridge I'm looking at the Glock 32 or the Sig P239.
Coffee
,Just think plastic / alluminum is lighter and more weather resistant. Not arguing that more power is generally better. The full sized autos (most 10mm's) just don't fit me right. The most serious competition to the .357 Sig for my uses would probably be a 3" J-frame .357 Mag. In the auto cartridge I'm looking at the Glock 32 or the Sig P239.
Coffee
cratz2
Member
Yeah... even though I've shot 10mm Glocks on several occassions, when just quick posting, I always forget that the grip is bigger on the 10mms than the 9s/40s/357s. And I STILL don't know why they don't offer 45 or 10mm in the mid-sized platform. I mean, I know it would have to be a whole new frame and yadda yadda... But still, a 10mm sized the same as the 19/23/32 (but with the larger grip) would be nice.
FireInTheHole
Member
How about a G36 sized single stack 10mm? hehehe "BOOOM! oh no... I think I broke my wrist!"
earl_simmons
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No real problems with .357 SIG ammo availability - Georgia Arms - about $173/1000 rounds including shipping.
earl_simmons
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1500 rounds of +P or +P+ 9 mm ball ammunition? If not, the prices are not comparable.
A
AnklePocket
Guest
Stop it. I can't take much more. You'll get my 9s, .40s, .357 sigs and .45s from my cold, dead hands. I may even get a 10mm Glock 29 in protest of this thread. Don't make me do it. Don't...
earl_simmons
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1500 rounds of 9mm NATO Canned Heat actually sells for $213. The price per case for the 9mm NATO is only $30 less than that for the .357 SIG and the ballistics are not at all equivalent. I am working on the assumption (based on a previous post) that you believe +P or +P+ 9mm ballistics equal .357 SIG ballistics. I am also assuming that any comparison of practice ammunition costs for the 9mm and .357 SIG involves ball ammunition that performs similarly as the best defense loads for the two calibers. This is based on the understanding that one will practice with ammunition that shoots like the premium rounds that would most likely be selected for defensive purposes. Otherwise, such a comparison is pointless as several weapons in either caliber can be converted to .22 LR for use with "light" practice loads. Similarly, .357 SIG pistols offered by SIG and Glock (and perhaps other manufacturers) can be converted to fire 9mm with a simple barrel switch.
Earl, Your opinion on the 357Sig???
I shot the Springfield XD40 and also the XD357. I found that I shot the 357Sig a bit better, so I bought it!!! Still haven't bought any ammo for it, but planning on Georgia Arms soon. (already sent them copy of permit). The shop that sold it to me offered to qualify me to add it to my CCW permit at no charge, i.e., they included ammo. I was very pleased with my qual session.
Also own the XD9, and practice with, and use for daily carry the Speer 124 +P JHP, which I have been able to get in boxes of 250 at local gun show at a pretty good price, but don't know how much longer they will be available. (Batch numbers were not on the recall list).
Lastly, what is Canned Heat ammo? Where do you buy this ammo?
I shot the Springfield XD40 and also the XD357. I found that I shot the 357Sig a bit better, so I bought it!!! Still haven't bought any ammo for it, but planning on Georgia Arms soon. (already sent them copy of permit). The shop that sold it to me offered to qualify me to add it to my CCW permit at no charge, i.e., they included ammo. I was very pleased with my qual session.
Also own the XD9, and practice with, and use for daily carry the Speer 124 +P JHP, which I have been able to get in boxes of 250 at local gun show at a pretty good price, but don't know how much longer they will be available. (Batch numbers were not on the recall list).
Lastly, what is Canned Heat ammo? Where do you buy this ammo?
Lot of assumptions there, Earl! The bottom line remains you can still shoot the 9x19 considerably cheaper than the 357 SIG. You might want to compare the 9x19 124-grain +P Gold Dots at $240 per thousand versus 357 SIG Gold Dots at $310. You pay almost 30% more (almost the same ratio as the "Canned Heat") for the 357 SIG for no increase in terminal effectiveness. There is nothing wrong with the 357 SIG, but you obtain the same effectiveness with the 9x19 about 30% cheaper (or shoot approximately one third more--depending on how you want to look at it).
Mamia357 - http://www.georgia-arms.com/canned.htm
Mamia357 - http://www.georgia-arms.com/canned.htm
earl_simmons
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jc2: Ammunition costs will indeed be higher with the .357 SIG, but it has certainly not been established that the 9mm can match its effectiveness. Looking at the two loads mentioned in your post (9mm 124 gr +P Gold dots and .357 SIG 125 gr Gold Dots offered by Georgia Arms), we see clear differences in ballistic properties: 124 gr bullet mass @ 1200 fps generating 396 ft-lbs for the 9mm versus 125 gr bullet mass @ 1400 fps generating 544 ft-lbs for the .357 SIG. How much of an effect these differences have on a target and if any such effect justifies higher ammunition costs is debatable, but I don't believe one can assume that the two rounds show identical performance.
jc2, Thanks for the link to the 9mm Canned Heat. Are there any disadvantages to using re-manufactured ammo? This would only be for target shooting, and looking at the price, it is still slightly higher than Winchester White Box (110 gr?) from WalMart.
Disregard the above statement on cost. I just rechecked, the 115 gr, at $109.95 for 1000 rounds is a slightly better value than the WWB at WallyWorld. The 124gr NATO is just a little more at $129.95, which I will probably order with my 357Sig order from Georgia-Arms.
Disregard the above statement on cost. I just rechecked, the 115 gr, at $109.95 for 1000 rounds is a slightly better value than the WWB at WallyWorld. The 124gr NATO is just a little more at $129.95, which I will probably order with my 357Sig order from Georgia-Arms.
Earl -
Ten years or so ago, when the 357 SIG was introduced, that little extra MV and ME might have made for a more effective round overall, but thanks to the state of development of modern bullets, their effectiveness is virtually identical. When compared using the best of today's modern bullets, the 357 SIG offers no increase in terminal effectiveness. Currently, both the 9x19 and 357 SIG are capable of delivering optimum performance with their class of .36 calibre rounds (and there is no difference in the optimum performance between the two rounds). Unfortunately, all the negatives (increase muzzle flip, increased muzzle blast, lower capacity, greater wear and tear on the weapon and the shooter, and siginficantly higher cost) of that extra MV and ME remain. The 357 SIG has largely been OBE'd (overcome by events) thanks to modern .36 calibre bullets available to both the 9x19 and 357 SIG.
Miami -
You might watch your shipping costs with Georgia Arms (but you very close to them so it might not be to bad). Even as far as live, the shipping is usually less than the sales tax if I purchase locally. As for disadvantages of remanufactured ammunition, I have shot literally thousands of rounds of Georgia Arms without problems. (To be honest, I've had more problems with some factory new ammo--UMC and PMC to be specific--than Georgia Arms remanufactured stuff. Remember, Georgia Arms is a very large operation and major suppler to LE. They have good quality control in my experience (and care about their customers). You might check their "Shear Power" loads for carry--at their prices you can afford to practice with your carry loads.
Actually, it has been pretty well established. The best 9x19 and 357 SIG ammunition are delivering virtually identical penetration and expansion (approximately 16 inches penetration and expansion in the low to mid .60s). The top 9x19 rounds are delivering similar performance to top 357 SIG rounds in actual LE usage. Testing indicates very similar intermediate barrier performance with the best 9x19 and 357 SIG ammunition.
Ten years or so ago, when the 357 SIG was introduced, that little extra MV and ME might have made for a more effective round overall, but thanks to the state of development of modern bullets, their effectiveness is virtually identical. When compared using the best of today's modern bullets, the 357 SIG offers no increase in terminal effectiveness. Currently, both the 9x19 and 357 SIG are capable of delivering optimum performance with their class of .36 calibre rounds (and there is no difference in the optimum performance between the two rounds). Unfortunately, all the negatives (increase muzzle flip, increased muzzle blast, lower capacity, greater wear and tear on the weapon and the shooter, and siginficantly higher cost) of that extra MV and ME remain. The 357 SIG has largely been OBE'd (overcome by events) thanks to modern .36 calibre bullets available to both the 9x19 and 357 SIG.
Miami -
You might watch your shipping costs with Georgia Arms (but you very close to them so it might not be to bad). Even as far as live, the shipping is usually less than the sales tax if I purchase locally. As for disadvantages of remanufactured ammunition, I have shot literally thousands of rounds of Georgia Arms without problems. (To be honest, I've had more problems with some factory new ammo--UMC and PMC to be specific--than Georgia Arms remanufactured stuff. Remember, Georgia Arms is a very large operation and major suppler to LE. They have good quality control in my experience (and care about their customers). You might check their "Shear Power" loads for carry--at their prices you can afford to practice with your carry loads.
In the case where we have the same bullets traveling at different velocities but having the same terminal ballistics, do you think the extra energy accounts for anything?
Surely the extra energy is still there and being transfered to the target? Is there something else that these tests should be testing for? In the end it might be trivial or it may be extra insurance but I would like to know why there isn't any difference.
Surely the extra energy is still there and being transfered to the target? Is there something else that these tests should be testing for? In the end it might be trivial or it may be extra insurance but I would like to know why there isn't any difference.
Beav, it has been pretty well documented that velocity and energy, in and of themselves, do not cause injury (i.e., are not wounding agents) with the velocity and energy levels achieved by handgun rounds. Modern bullets are designed work (penetrate and expand) within certain velocity (energy) "windows." The 357 SIG bullet is designed to require more velocity (energy) to work. That extra energy the 357 SIG generates is required to obtain optimum penetration and expansion for the 357 SIG bullet. If a person wants to believe that relatively small amount of velocity and energy difference "does something," they are certainly free to believe (faith is a marvelous) thing, but all the hard documentation strongly indicates that velocity and energy are NOT wounding agents at the velocity and energy levels achieved by handguns. Basically, a little more of nothing is still nothing.
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