357mag/158gr powder recommendation
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GeoDudeFlorida
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Before you go looking for or at loads specific to the Hornady XTP - or any other specific bullet - it would be a good idea to compare the specific characteristics, as mentioned already, to the bullets you are actually going to use.
The XTP HP and FP don’t always compare similarly to other types of jacketed bullets. Unless you know beyond any doubt that they are nearly identical, look at more generic data that closely approximates what you are using.
The direction you are going is not exactly good. Grabbing at load data without comparing the primary component - the bullet - is a bad idea. Even if you start low, which low do you pick?
I am planning on using the Zero 158gr JHP, so the bullet is fixed.
The Hodgdon site doesn't list any 158gr JHP for either AA#9 or Longshot, only XTP data.
My Lyman 48th does have a 158gr jacketed HP with data for Blue Dot, AA#7, 2400 (which I don't have), and AA#9 so I can start there.
Really what I was looking for is which powders are recommended to start with to get a mid-full power loads with some blast and flash, thanks!
P Flados
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I ran Quickload and it showed AA7 & AA9 as the best choices of the powders you listed. The faster of the two would be my choice with the short barrel.
I have an older western load guide that shows 10.5 gr of AA7 as max with a Nosler 158 JHP. Quickload shows max as pretty close to this and it indicates that 1.580 COAL for this bullet results in a 0.485 seating depth.
With AA9, I would only go to 12.8 based on Quickload where the western load guide went to 13.8. Note that this is with a Hornady XTP. Quickload says that a 1.580" COAL with the 158 XTP JHP gives a 0.369" seating depth.
The above does not seem consistent with what I expected for COAL vs seating depth. Seating depth matters a lot in determining max load. Do you have an idea of how deep you plan to seat the Zero JHPs?
I have an older western load guide that shows 10.5 gr of AA7 as max with a Nosler 158 JHP. Quickload shows max as pretty close to this and it indicates that 1.580 COAL for this bullet results in a 0.485 seating depth.
With AA9, I would only go to 12.8 based on Quickload where the western load guide went to 13.8. Note that this is with a Hornady XTP. Quickload says that a 1.580" COAL with the 158 XTP JHP gives a 0.369" seating depth.
The above does not seem consistent with what I expected for COAL vs seating depth. Seating depth matters a lot in determining max load. Do you have an idea of how deep you plan to seat the Zero JHPs?
fxvr5
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Here's some numbers.
Hornady 158 XTP is .672" long.
Zero 158 JHP is .650" long.
I seat the Zero 158 JHP at 1.555" OAL.
Lyman 50th shows a max A#9 load of 14.9 gr. with a Hornady 158 XTP at 1.590" OAL in Federal cases with CCI 550 primers producing 42,900 CUP.
Hornady 158 XTP is .672" long.
Zero 158 JHP is .650" long.
I seat the Zero 158 JHP at 1.555" OAL.
Lyman 50th shows a max A#9 load of 14.9 gr. with a Hornady 158 XTP at 1.590" OAL in Federal cases with CCI 550 primers producing 42,900 CUP.
GeoDudeFlorida
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I know. But as you have pointed out, the XTP starting loads are all over the place. The Zero JHP is probably closer in dimensions and jacket thickness to Sierra’s JHC data. Blue Dot and the old pre-Gold Dot Speer 160gr JSP will also be similar.
I’m sure you will get a good light and sound show out of Blue Dot with at least upper midrange velocities. The problem is most people load to eliminate flash-bang and optimize lower recoil without losing higher velocities. That’s not what you asked for but it’s the advice you’re getting.
Me, I’m all in on the stun grenade effect, that’s really what you want. Blue Dot. Try it.
GeoDudeFlorida
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But which one has more muzzle blast and flash? That’s the OP’s question: which powder to use to get a light and sound show.
I don't have them on hand yet, but with bullets that have a cannelure, I usually set the length based on that and crimp into it, the goal being to crimp towards the center of it.
GeoDudeFlorida
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That's pretty much always the best way to do it. Unfortunately, bullet makers don't typically list a seating depth and Roze doesn't list any dimensions.
So if I'm picking this up.
Flash and muzzle blast will be best ( for what ever reason ) and mid range load, with the slow powders. Not 296 or h110 but start load of 2400. 2400 is well behaved. The most annoying will be with a 125 or 140 jacketed.
The all time biggest blast will come with a full load of 296 and 125. I say those weights because I use XTP's and have plenty.
Even the 38 heavy duty loads with 2400 are blasty from my 3 inch
Flash and muzzle blast will be best ( for what ever reason ) and mid range load, with the slow powders. Not 296 or h110 but start load of 2400. 2400 is well behaved. The most annoying will be with a 125 or 140 jacketed.
The all time biggest blast will come with a full load of 296 and 125. I say those weights because I use XTP's and have plenty.
Even the 38 heavy duty loads with 2400 are blasty from my 3 inch
AJC1
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I run my cast bullets a noe 154 weighing 156 grains at 13.7 grains #9 at 1.585. I run jacketed zero, Sierra 158 jsp etc at 14.2 grains. I don't have any extraction pressure or stickiness in either marlin or my colt. #9 loads are all over the map with Lyman going to 14.9 with a jacketed 158 and Hornaday with loads waaaaay below that. 14.9 is to hot for my guns so I don't use it or recommend it.
Lyman shows starting at 13.4gr - would it be reasonable to make up some at 13.4gr, 13.7gr, 14.0gr to begin with and chrono them.
Although with the short 2.5" barrel, I'm not exactly sure what a full power AA#9 load is with 158gr in terms of velocity. Lyman shows 1357fps for a 4", but most 4" to 2.5" were a loss of perhaps 10%, so that would be 1221 fps.).
GeoDudeFlorida
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That's why I say Blue Dot; a.k.a. Flaming Dirt. The fireball from a starting load of BD in a .357 is impressive. It's not efficient or economical but when I was doing load development for my Sierra 158gr. JHC's (in a 2-1/2" Colt Lawman - since gladly departed) it gave good accuracy at 25yds and no pressure signs. Just lots of yellow flash and a thunderclap. I load my .45AR S&W 1917 with 300gr Sierra JHC's and a starting load of BD. It's like a flash-bang. I figure even if I miss the perp' with the bullet, I've got a good chance of scorching and blinding them.
I'm expecting the fireball but they will definitely need a diaper change! LOL! ;D
AJC1
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My friend tried my 13.7 load in his Derringer and only once. The barrel length in my opinion isn't as important as the grip. These are absolutely full power loads and guns with small grips for concealed carry get wild with these loadings. I've run #9 down in the 11.x range and the powder burn gets erratic and es/SD numbers go north of 100.
GeoDudeFlorida
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So, the goal is no longer a big flash and loud report but a standard load?
Should'a said so at the start.
AJC1
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The op and his second post discusses use of #9. What exactly am I missing....
I read " mid range load " " I want some blast and a decent amount of flash" so I like what you mentioned but what about post#1
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AJC1
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13.7 is a mid range load according to some books, above max in others.... #9 is probably the most problematic powder based on load data, but my experience in loading it says it's not a runaway spiky one for development.
GeoDudeFlorida
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I have to wonder if that isn't because it changed origins a few times in its history.
Where is No.9 being made today? I think it's in the USA but it has been made in Belgium and Canada in the past. No.7 used to be made in Israel but I don't think they ever made No.9. (??)
I've used AA5, AA7, AA9, and Blue Dot. I've shot 158gr SWC lead hardcast, 158FRN, and Winchester 158gr JHP and Speer 158gr.Gold Dots. I tested them through my 6" revolver and not a 2-1/2" revolver though. AA9 is for full power loads, have a helluva recoil and would be great for a hunting load. I've shot Winchester JHP and Oregon Trail 158gr SWC with it and both grouped well. Blue Dot has less felt recoil and has a burn rate close to AA7. I've shot 158gr Speer GD with good results. I've read that BD is not recommended with 125gr bullets because it leads to a cracked forcing cone. Use AA7. BD is said to create a big flame. AA5 would make a great target load. I've loaded 38-135gr GD with AA5. The group was decent and the bullet expanded beautifully. AA powders are not known for creating big flames so maybe Power Pistol or Blue Dot is a better choice. Oh, I remember AA9 making a pretty good size flame from my muzzle.
I'm not familiar with Zero bullets, but if you are loading 158 gr XTP I would start with 13.5gr of Accurate #9 for 357 magnum with a SPP. this works very well in my 2.75" Ruger Security Six.
Palladan44
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Target Velocity- (800fps) W-231
Mediums- up to (1000fps) PP or BE86
Full powerhard cast- (up to1250)- 2400
Full tilt jacketed- (1300+) WW-296
Plenty of good substitutes for most of these, except 2400- there's nothing like twenty-four-hundred.
Mediums- up to (1000fps) PP or BE86
Full powerhard cast- (up to1250)- 2400
Full tilt jacketed- (1300+) WW-296
Plenty of good substitutes for most of these, except 2400- there's nothing like twenty-four-hundred.
P Flados
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With numbers from fxvr5, I ran a Quickload (QL) table with the powders from the OP.
Given the desire to use a specific bullet with no known actual test data, QL is probably as good as you are going to get for predicting performance and pressures. I used the default QL max recommended chamber pressure when I ran the table. This should be safe and going over it puts you more at risk of exceeding the SAAMI limit given that this is not actual test data. Starting below the values shown and working up is recommended.
QL does not account for cylinder gap, I typically subtract 50 fps from the prediction. The QL input for barrel length is muzzle to breech, so it includes the cylinder.
The very high muzzle pressures of AA7, AA9 and Blue Dot indicate that lots of flash/bang are expected. AA7 and Blue Dot give essentially the same performance as AA9 while using 10% less powder.
Given the desire to use a specific bullet with no known actual test data, QL is probably as good as you are going to get for predicting performance and pressures. I used the default QL max recommended chamber pressure when I ran the table. This should be safe and going over it puts you more at risk of exceeding the SAAMI limit given that this is not actual test data. Starting below the values shown and working up is recommended.
QL does not account for cylinder gap, I typically subtract 50 fps from the prediction. The QL input for barrel length is muzzle to breech, so it includes the cylinder.
The very high muzzle pressures of AA7, AA9 and Blue Dot indicate that lots of flash/bang are expected. AA7 and Blue Dot give essentially the same performance as AA9 while using 10% less powder.
Code:
Cartridge : .357 Magnum (SAAMI)
Bullet : .357, 158, 0.650" long Zero JHP
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.555 inch = 39.50 mm
Barrel Length : 4.2 inch = 106.7 mm
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Accurate No.7 68.9 11.5 0.74 1182 86.7 30625 10715 0.487 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant BLUE DOT 89.2 11.2 0.73 1174 85.6 30625 10499 0.485 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate No.9 77.0 12.6 0.82 1173 80.3 30625 10531 0.483 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori 3N37 73.0 8.7 0.56 1139 99.6 30625 8672 0.486 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Longshot 56.6 8.8 0.57 1133 99.5 30625 8532 0.485 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N340 71.0 7.3 0.47 1095 100.0 30625 7182 0.489 ! Near Maximum !Similar threads
