357mag 158LSWC and Trail Boss

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Just curious if anyone would care to share their load info with me regarding this combo. Hodgdon lists max loads of TB with a 158gn in both 357 and 38 Special at 4.2. I've always read that with TB you can safely fill the case to a point where the base of the bullet would sit on top of the load (no compression) but was looking for some real data. I'd like to get around 950-1000fps out of the load.

Is it possible?
 
sounds like you want to load hotter than the trailboss data. I would try unique

357 mag is an outstanding round for reloading.
 
Despite its high bulk and volume TB is a fast burning powder. 4.2grs of TB will likely come close to filling both the .38 spl and .357 mag since the difference isn't that great between case lengths. TB really isn't the powder to use if you are looking for move velocity than the book as you simply don't have enough case volume to hold enough of the bulky powdeer. Hodgdon velocity data comes from a 10" test barrel so actual velocity with loads will be less when shot from a 4" or 6" revolver. Developed specifically for old large volume cartridges originally loaded with Black powder being shot in the low velocity loads used in the Cowboy action shooting games, TB is quite good but for producing any loads beyond mild target stuff its not up to the job.

For 950 to 1,000 fps with a 158gr LSWC you can use any other pistol powder from fast burning Bullseye to 2400 but a mid burn rate powder in the Unique range is easy to work with.
 
Using 4.2gr of Trail Boss under a Missouri Bullet 158gr LSWC (Starline brass, 1.610" COL, CCI small pistol primer, and firm roll crimp), I averaged 738 fps (191 ft-lbs) out of a S&W M686+ 4". That's the energy equivalent of a factory-standard .380 Auto round...

Looking for about 1000 fps with this combo, Accurate #2, VihtaVuori N320, and VihtaVuori N340 all worked very well (N340 actually turned in single-digit standard deviation numbers). YMMV.
 
Appreciate all the feedback, I'm looking for a little better velocity as I currently only have hardcast bullets and wanted to make sure I'd get some amount of obturation. I like being able to see the powder in the case, thus the reason for the TB. The gun is a BH and the load is for my daughter.

Maybe I should just load it up to 4.2 and see what happens. If it doesn't lead too badly I'm good to go.

Thanks.
 
I tried some MBC BHN 18 (Magnum hardness) over 4.2 gr of Trail Boss, using .357 mag brass and a mag primer, with no significant increase in leading over the 12 BHN. I was just experimenting; I have plenty of BHN 12 bullets. What I'm getting at, is that I think you'll be fine. :)

Trail Boss is fantastic, by the way. I won't use anything else for .38 Special anymore.

To get 950-1000 fps I would look into alternative powders, probably something like 2400 or IMR4227* (I haven't tried IMR4227 yet, but it's on my mental list of things to do.)
 
Using 4.2gr of Trail Boss under a Missouri Bullet 158gr LSWC (Starline brass, 1.610" COL, CCI small pistol primer, and firm roll crimp), I averaged 738 fps (191 ft-lbs) out of a S&W M686+ 4". That's the energy equivalent of a factory-standard .380 Auto round...
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting this, RidgwayCO. I have always wondered what kind of ballpark velocity that load gets from a 4" tube. Sounds like a perfect recreation of a "standard" LRN 158 load.

Do you happen to remember what the deviations were like?
 
A thousand fps and good obturation? Sounds like a job for Unique. Try 6-6.5 grains. You should be able to find happiness right about there.

Trail Boss really isn't a performance powder. It's a CAS powder for the shooters to load for low velocity and light recoil with a good case fill.
 
918v said:
You need pressure to obdurate not velocity.
Click to expand...

Yes you do. And along with velocity increase -- pressure goes up.....so instead of posting that I wanted more pressure I posted an increase in velocity. They go hand in hand as long as we're talking in terms of the same powder.

Waywatcher, that's good info, I'll try the 4.2 load and go from there.

Thanks everyone.
 
You can't really obturate a hardcast bullet at 38 Special pressures.
 
Waywatcher, extreme spread was 68 fps and standard deviation was 19 fps (this was from a test of 10 shots). Not great, but not bad. My notes don't indicate if the powder column came up to the base of the bullet, so there might have been some extra space to play with.
 
Hodgdon lists max loads of TB with a 158gn in both 357 and 38 Special at 4.2.
Click to expand...

IIRC Hodgdon shows a mag. primer for .357mag and a standard primer for 38spl.
I've loaded 158gr LSWC with 4.4gr of TB w/standard primers in .357mag cases with good results, over that and things went south in a hurry.

I agree that Unique would be a good powder for you, but I would try Universal as it meters better and has about the same load volume.
 
918v said:
You can't really obturate a hardcast bullet at 38 Special pressures.
Click to expand...

You're probably right, however, the 4.2 load is 20,400 CUP and that equates to a Brinell of about 16 for optimum performance. I was hoping if I upped the load a bit, it would get me closer to the hardcast bullets 18BHN that I'm using. I'm going to give the load a whirl and if it doesn't work out, I'll order up some softer bullets.
 
I use 4.2 gr under that bullet out of my GP100. Haven't chrono'd it, but no leading and excellent accuracy. Love the TB. :)
 
IMR 4227 is a great high performance handgun powder.
The recoil is more of a pleasing THUMP rather that a sharp SMACK on ignition.
It' s also a larger volume powder so you will be able to see it in the case as you said you were looking for.
 
Quote:

>Yes you do. And along with velocity increase -- pressure goes up.<

While that's technically true, you don't always get a signifigant increase in velocity with pressure. With some powders, you can get more velocity with less pressure than others.
Obtruation to prevent gas cutting and lead fouling is more dependent on how quickly the pressure spikes. Early is best, which calls for a fast powder.

Quote 2:

>You can't really obturate a hardcast bullet at 38 Special pressures. <

Sure ya can. The trick is to use a quick powder like Bullseye or HP-38...and a softer bullet. I cast my own bullets quite a bit softer than most commercial bullets...which is commonly "Hardball" alloy...and shoot'em in everything up to and including .357 and .41 Magnum full velocity loads, and I don't get any lead fouling beyond a light wash that cleans out with a dry brush. Commercial bullets fired with the same powder in the revolvers...in this case a healthy dose of 2400...produces pretty heavy fouling in the first inch or so of barrel.
 
I cast my own bullets quite a bit softer than most commercial bullets...which is commonly "Hardball" alloy...
Click to expand...

+1. Now that I have hollowpoint moulds, this is a "must" if I want bullet expansion and not bullet facturing. Also, proper sizing and lubing goes a long ways towards expanding the BHN velocity range.

Don
 
Sure ya can. The trick is to use a quick powder like Bullseye or HP-38...and a softer bullet.
Click to expand...

So how do you soften a commercial hardcast bullet?

You can't.

The trick is to buy 12 BHN bullets from Missouri.
 
Another vote for 4.2 grs. of Trail Boss under the MBC 158 gr. SWC, Brin. 12. Shoots great in my Colts and S&Ws, without leading. The more I use Trail Boss loads, the more I like it!:
 
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