38-40 choice loads?

[NMRevolverGuy]

Hello all,

I walked into my local toy store today looking for a Winchester 1895. I walked out with a beautifully restored Winchester 92, manufacture date 1909, in 38-40. Im extremely excited about the rifle, but don't know much about the round. Does anyone have some favorite bullets/moulds for this? Any peculiarities I should know about it? I'll be shooting real bp through it, if that makes a difference.

Thanks ahead of time for the info!

 

[eastbank]

i load and shoot a colt bisley and a win1892 takedown rifle in 38-40 with a 180gr fn cast bullets that i buy 500 at a time. i load with unique powder. i don,t use black powder due to the cleaning that needs done pretty quick after fireing as black powder residue is very corrosive. but to each his own. eastbank.

 

[Prairie Dawg]

Fill the case to about 1/4 " from the top with FFg Black Powder & compress it with a 38-40 BigLube bullet.
Available from Springfield Slim [http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/BigLube.html]

Or buy the 6-cavity mold from Dick Dastardly and cast it yourself.
http://www.biglube.com/BulletMolds.aspx?ItemID=ab4ea15a-a002-435f-a5a4-f9e9035a0082
--Dawg

 

[44 Dave]

.38 WCF (38-40) like the .44-40 have thin necks on the brass that expands to seal the chamber. This is good for bp shooting but makes reloading a little more "delicate".

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

The 38-40 cartridge is basically a necked down version of the 44-40. It was the second cartridge Winchester chambered the Model 1873 for in 1879. Colt first chambered the Single Acton Army for 38-40 in 1884.

This photo shows, left to right, 45 Colt, 44-40, and 38-40. Other than being necked down to 40 caliber (yes, 40, not 38) the 38-40 case shares all other major dimensions with the 44-40.





So far I have two firearms chambered for 38-40. This Winchester Model 1873 made in 1887.





And this Bisley Colt made in 1909 IIFC.



Use a little bit of caution about how much powder to put in the case. When I first loaded 38-40 I used the same amount of powder as I do in 44-40, 2.2CC. This worked fine with some storebought 38-40 bullets, but when I loaded up some Big Lube .401 diameter bullets they would not chamber in my Winchester. Turns out because there is slightly less volume inside the 38-40 case, the extra compression of the load was squashing the dead soft, pure lead bullet slightly, and expanding its diameter. So the rounds would not chamber. I throttled back the load to 1.9CC and everything was fine.

Rather than filling the case to some arbitrary distance from the top, instead determine how much powder it will take to be compressed about 1/8" when you seat your bullet. This will of course vary with how deep any particular bullet sits when it is seated. This is easier than it sounds. Take your prospective bullet and line it up with the crimp groove even with the case mouth. Make a mark on the outside of the case even with the bottom of the bullet. Now make a little ruler from a small stick, with a mark on it the same distance as the mark on the case. Fill the case with enough powder so that the end of your little ruler is submerged about 1/8". That is your ideal amount of powder for that particular bullet. If you want to weigh it, go ahead and weigh it. If you have some sort of volumetric powder measure, set it to throw that amount. That's it. Fill the cases so the bullet compresses the powder by about 1/8" when seated.


I've said this a bazillion times, but I will say it again. Black Powder is not as corrosive as most folks think. In the old days, the combination of corrosive primers with BP fouling made for a lot of corrosion. We don't use corrosive primers any more, and the BP fouling by itself is not as corrosive as most folks think. Yes, you have to clean the guns, but you do not have to do it right away. I have a couple of antique revolvers staring at me right now that I shot with Black Powder last weekend. Yes, I need to clean them. When I do, I do not expect to find any corrosion.

 

[Malamute]

I agree with Mr Johnson regarding black powder corrosiveness. I do have to add that I live in a very dry climate, but I accidentally left a percussion pistol fired and uncleaned in the toolbox of my truck for about a year, and it had only very mild if any rust inside the barrel and chambers. It cleaned up fine. I bought an Uberti Navy that had been fired and uncleaned, nobody knew for how long, but it sat in the gunshop a while and nobody would touch it because it was dirty and gunked up. When the price got low enough I bought it. It had some mild rust, but no serious pitting. A hundred bucks for an Uberti Navy seemed fair though, even if dirty. It also cleaned up well.

FWIW, I fired my original 86 with black loads when out hunting. All that was easily available in camp was modern cleaning gear. I ran several patches soaked with Hoppes No 9 through it, then a couple dry ones, and it was fine until I got home a few days later.

 

[Don McDowell]

I prefer to cast bullet for the 38wcf using the RCBS 180 gr mould using 16-1 alloy.
Olde Eynsford 2f powder is working really well, and giving original ballistics.
If you prefer not to use black then bludot is an awfully good powder.
Big Sky components makes and casts some dang fine 180 gr bullets and sells them in quantities up to 1000 if you don't cast your own.
I also have an old Ideal tool with the mould on the end , and that is a fun outfit to use, but due to it's age, I don't use it a lot.
One thing to keep in mind if you happen into a batch of older Winchester once fired cases, for what ever reason they crimp the primers much like a military case, so before you smuck up some primers trying to reprime those cases use a pocket reamer to remove that crimp.

 

[Win1892]

I have a 92 made in 1907 that I've shot a number of times with BP. 180 FP I get from Missouri Bullet Co. Trail Boss works well and is quiet.

 

[orpington]

I recently loaded several .38-40 rounds using a 190 grain cast bullet in .401 diameter (simply because I had them) in front of 30 grains of FFg and it compressed just the right amount. MY understanding was that the nomenclature of .38-40 was simply the reverse of other black powder rounds (e.g., a .40 cal bullet and 38 grains blackpowder. I found that 30 grains of FFg and a cookie, with this 190 grain bullet, was spot on!

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

MY understanding was that the nomenclature of .38-40 was simply the reverse of other black powder rounds (e.g., a .40 cal bullet and 38 grains blackpowder.

I wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard that explanation. If that were true, why did Winchester mark the first Model 1873 rifles chambered for the caliber 38 CAL?

When the 1873 was first introduced there were no caliber markings on it because they were all chambered for 44-40. By 1879 Oliver Winchester decided to introduce a new caliber, the 38-40. He was hoping to increase sales and sell a new rifle in a new chambering to shooters who already owned a 44-40. That's when markings for caliber first appeared on the Model 1873, not on the barrel as you would expect, but on the bottom of the brass carrier.

Like this:





Later they started marking them on the barrel too:




So if that story about reversing the numbers were true, why were the early guns chambered for the cartridge marked 38 CAL and not 40 CAL? Of course, later on Winchester labeled them 38WCF (38 Winchester Center Fire). Not 40WCF.

Some say it was because old Oliver thought 38-40 sounded better than 40-40. The fact is, nobody really knows. But it ain't because for some reason the convention of bullet diameter followed by powder charge was reversed for this one cartridge.

By the way, 38-40 as a chambering never really took off with the Model 1873. 80% of all '73s sold were chambered for 44-40 and next was 32-20. 38-40 lagged way behind, a distant third. With the Model 1892, sales of 44-40 remained the most popular chambering, with 38-40 lagging slightly behind 32-20. 38-40 was also the third most popular chambering for the Colt SAA, lagging far behind 45 Colt and 44-40.

 

[orpington]

Quote:
MY understanding was that the nomenclature of .38-40 was simply the reverse of other black powder rounds (e.g., a .40 cal bullet and 38 grains blackpowder.

I wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard that explanation. If that were true, why did Winchester mark the first Model 1873 rifles chambered for the caliber 38 CAL?


Driftwood,

Admittedly, the story about .38-40 being a .40 cal round with 38 grains of blackpowder held a whole lot more water until I actually reloaded blackpowder rounds for the first time in .38-40 a few weeks ago. In my general experience, although the interior capacity of rounds are slightly different now than they were in the 19th Century, they are fairly close. For example, I think when I load .50-70 Government, I can get slightly over 65 grains of Fg blackpowder in the case, but not 70. For .38-40, I would have expected somewhat over 35 grains, and probably closer to 37 or 38 grains. When I loaded my first round with 40 grains, 'just to see what would happen', it was flush to the top of the case. With 30 grains behind the 190 grain cast bullet, I get just the right amount of compression.

Once again, Driftwood, you have amazed me! While I know a fair amount about firearms, it simply pales in comparison to you! You should write a book someday!

One question for you: When Oliver Winchester started manufacturing the Winchester 1873 in .38-40, why didn't he mark on the rifle .40 cal, instead of .38 cal? Wasn't there lots of confusion 'back in the day'? Would someone have ever wandered into their local general store and picked up a box of bullets marked .38 cal only to get back home to the ranch or farm, and find that this did not quite work out? Maybe the confusion was nonexistent because, at the very least, fully loaded boxes of ammunition were marked 'for the Winchester 1873', or other similar wording, and maybe it was the same for purchased bullets?