38-56 Win. barrel relining

[rwhichel]

New member, first post. I have a model 86 Winchester in 38-56 caliber. It was built in 1892. It is in very good shape except for the bore. The rifleing is very faint and worn. I have fired reloaded rounds that I purchased for it and they tumble. The reloaded rounds appear to be loaded with .377" to .378" diam. lead bullets. The gun is a family heirloom as it was my grandfathers when he was a mounted trooper at Yellowstone national park in 1902 & 1903. He was in troop B, 3rd. U.S. Cav. I would like to reline the barrel to the original caliber. I have found several outfits that reline barrels but they are not equipped to do the 38-56. I would like to find someone to do it that comes with good referances. Any assistance or recommendations will be greatly appreciated. If I can't find someone to reline it, I am considering reloading some rounds for it with over sized cast lead bullets (possibly .380"diam.) to see what kind of results I can get. I have already purchased a set of Lee dies for it. If anyone can offer advise on that possible solution I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks again

 

[Jim Watson]

I do not know of anybody who relines big bottlenecks like that. You might ask at
http://www.bpcr.net/index-a.htm

I recall an outfit that made exact replacement Winchester barrels, right down to the markings. Maybe these folks:
http://www.windriverrifle.com/catalog/item/1840300/1291655.htm

Badger makes replacement '86 barrels, but do not list .38-56. Might be worth a call


As to loading for it with a bullet that will fill the grooves, I would try the Saeco #738 from Dave Jennings at:
http://www.montanabulletworks.com/wst_page7.html
I use his Lyman 378674 in my .38-55 Highwall but that is too long and heavy a bullet for the repeater.

 

[ocharry]

maybe you should do a chamber and bore cast to see what size you need,,,, and then have a mould made to your specific bullet size

then you could leave the old gal just as your grandfather used it

IIRC i read once where the older 38cals did use a bigger bullet than the new ones,,,,seems like in the .380-.382 range

i would slug the bore to see where it is and then make a decision,,,,but that's just me

ocharry

 

[rcmodel]

Pay special attention to the rifling at the muzzle.

Many of the old Winchesters have the rifling at the muzzle worn almost completely away by a century of cleaning rod wear. That leaves a funnel shaped or blunderbuss muzzle.
If you have that, no amount of reloading or oversize bullets will make it shoot.

The reason being that by the time the bullet gets there, it is already sized to the good bore further back, and suddenly finds itself slipping & sliding in the oversize muzzle section.

If that is the case, you have two options.
1. Have the barrel shortened to carbine length to get back to good rifling.
2. Counterbore the muzzle back far enough to get to good rifling.

I would suggest you slug the bore with an oversize lead bullet or fishing sinker and measure it to see what the actual bore diameter is.
Then try to buy or make fairly soft cast bullets .001" - .002" larger then the bore.

But if you notice that the slug gets looser towards the muzzle, you are back to option 1. or 2..

 

[Jim K]

A note on barrel relining. To reline a barrel, the barrel is drilled out and reamed to the outside diameter of the liner, so the liner is a slip fit in the old barrel. Then the liner is either glued or soldered into the barrel. But the drilling is never perfect, so there will be parts of the liner that are not tightly supported by the original barrel. With high power cartridges (even that one is in the high power category), the liner will swell out unevenly and the rifle will not shoot well.

In brief, a liner can be used only for cartridges whose pressure can be fully contained by the liner alone. That means .22 LR, and low pressure rounds like .25-20, .32-20, .38-40 and .44-40.

That is why you didn't find any information on lining a .38-56; it can't be done.

Jim

 

[Jim Watson]

Although I have since post 2 seen a reference to Mark Beinke relining the bigger black powder calibers, I think the thing to do would be to get a new barrel for shooting and keep the original original for posterity.

Call him up and see what HE says.

Beinke & Beinke
4520 Anderson
Klamath Falls, OR 97603
541-882-3371

 

[rwhichel]

38-56 Relining

Thanks for your response guys. I really appreciate it. I have now found someone that can do the job, but after reading Jim Keenans reply I don't know if I should get it done or not. Everyone else I talked to that does relining said they would be glad to do it if I wanted it relined to 45-70 WIN. They just didn't have the reamer for 38-56. I am assuming that the 45-70 must be at least as high a pressure round as my 38-56. Are all 45-70 relining jobs not accurate shooters? I talked to Beinke in Oregon and he is now retired and doing no work. The man I found that can do the work is Allen Siegrist in Witmore, Michigan or Wisconsin. Does anyone out there know anything about his work? Anyway, it looks like I have a decission to make. The more information I can get from you guys the better prepared I will be to make that decission. I would rather reline than go the new barrel route so that I can retain the original appearance, but I also want it to be a good shooter. Does anyone out there have any experiance shooting a relined 45-70. Thanks again guys, I really do appreciate your time and the sharing of your knowledge. Ron

 

[Jim Watson]

A conversion to .45-70 would normally be a rebore, not a reline.
A good shop would ream the existing barrel to .450" inside diameter and cut new rifling grooves into the original steel. The question of liner bonding and support would not come up. The gun should shoot the new caliber with little or no other work, .45-70 was a standard caliber in the model.

Edit to add: It would be possible to reline to .45-70, I have seen advertisements for doing it to Trapdoor Springfields. No doubt any given shop will have a preferred method.

Another alternative would be to rebore to .40-65 but ammunition choice is limited and expensive if you don't handload. .45-70 is much better known and widely available.

I know nothing about Mr Siegrist except that John Taylor lists him as an alternative to his own shop. Contact information for both at:
http://www.johntaylormachine.com/79.0.html

Another possibility would be Clearwater. They took over Cliff LaBounty's business and he was very well thought of. If they have maintained his quality, that would be a good place to go to. Read about the reboring process at:
http://www.deltagunshop.com/Clearwater/CW_about.html

Sorry, I have no personal experience with a rebored or relined barrel except my .44-40. It now has a Redman liner and shoots fine.

 

[Jim K]

It may be a matter of semantics, but the thin barrel liners sold by Brownells and others just won't stand up to .45-70 pressures. What those folks who do to .45-70's is what I have called "sleeving." This involves drilling out the original barrel until it is a thin shell, then turning down a regular .45 barrel to fit. The insert is a lot thicker than the common barrel liner and can take the pressure, but the outer shell is so thin it is subject to cracking.

If you choose to have that done, make sure the gunsmith will give you a guarantee and get a firm date for completion.

Jim

 

[Rook rifle]

Before you go and reline that barrel take it off the action stick into a tank of bluing solution this will take most of lead and copper from the lands if not then reline barrel

 

[Clemson]

That bluing solution is NOT a cleaning bath. You will ruin a salts bath with that kind of foolishness. Also, from a safety standpoint, anything that might react with the salts may spatter, and that can burn the hang out of you. Forget it.

Clemson

 

[rcmodel]

+1

What with the cost of new chemicals now, you'd have to be insane to stick a crudded up barrel in a bluing tank. It has to be replaced often enough without contaminating it with lead & copper!

 

[Rook rifle]

Clemson every time you re blue a barrel the bath cleans copper and lead from the lands and as for the splatter the salts are in the air.:banghead:I mite be new to this form but not to bluing barrels and what takes place in the tank.

 

[Clemson]

Rook, you clean the barrel before you put it into the salts. I mean as absolutely clean as you can get it, then clean it again. If you are blowing lead and copper out of the bore, then you are not doing an adequate job of cleaning it before you blue.

Clemson

 

[Pokyman]

I have read with interest the opinions about relining barrels for the 38-56 and other black powder era cartridges.
First off, If I were forturnate enough to own a nice 1886 Winchester or other lever rifle, I would certainly want to preserve as much of the original rifle as possible. Rebarreling or soaking in bluing salts would be my last choice.
I have relined quite a number of lever action and single shot rifles (rimfire and center fire) and I can say with sure knowledge that they shoot at least as good the rifle did when it left the factory as a new firearm.
I have relined model 92 Winchesters to 25-20 and 32-20 as well as model 93 marlin to 32-40. After finishing with these rifles I test fired them and they grouped as well as you could expect from this type of firearm.
I have relined several Winchester 1886's in various calibers. I just finished a rely nice 86 and restored it to the original 38-56. Several years ago I relined an 86 to 45-90. It came from the factory as a 45-90 and had a bore typical of a rifle firing ammunition from this era (pitted and rusty). After relining the owner developed a smokeless powder load and used this rifle to win the lever action silhouette National championships at Raton New Mexico.
I have relined schuetzen, hunting, and silhouette single shot rifles in calibers from 22 rf. all the way up to 45-90. All have been excellent shooters. The single shot rifles relined have been Remington Rolling block, Winchester 1885, Maynard model 1873, Marlin Ballard, Stevens model 44 and 44 1/2.
Hopefully I do not come across as boasting, just wanted to let you know I do have some experience in this area.
Relined barrels should not be used with pressured exceeding black powder pressures.

 

[Jim Watson]

Are you offering your services to the original poster?

 

[Jim K]

I don't know about anyone else, but I always plugged the bore on both ends before putting a barrel in the rebluing tank. The wood plugs not only keep barrel crud out of the tank and blue out of the barrel, but make handles to hang the barrel by.

Jim

 

[2RCO]

Get a new barrel made and swap it out. Save the old one. You solve your problem and don't ruin a decently valued and increasingly rarer piece of history.

 

[Pokyman]

38-56 relining

In response to Jim Watson about offering my services to original post. My comments were not intended to drum up business. I was just offering my opinion (just like belly buttons, everyone's got one) and experience concerning relining.
Anyone that says that lined firearms don't shoot well could be the victim of poor workmanship. If done correctly, lined rifles will shoot with firearms with excellent barrels. That is if you compare single shot rifles to single shot rifles in the same caliber- lever gun to lever gun in the same caliber etc.
I have a Stevens 44 1/2 in 22 LR that is lined and has a match chamber. I shot numerous 10 shot groups with match ammunition that measure 3/8" or less at 100 yards. The fun little rifle has a lyman 15X scope mounted on top. Fun to shoot fly's that land on the target- sorta screws up your group though.
In response to the others that recommend a new barrel- If wanting to use the rifle as a shooter and would prefer to keep the original barrel unchanged, thats your choice and I am sure you have a good reason for it.
Most of my business, especially lever guns, is from people who have a rifle that has long family ownership and just want to be able to shoot granpa's gun and be able to hit something.
For a while I had quite a few original rifles in the smaller centerfire calibers that people wanted lined to use in Cowboy action. The old and original look was important to them.
Other lever gun owners wanted to use their rifle in NRA lever action silhouette. If you rebarrel the rifle it is illegal to use. Liners are OK- go figure.
If the person that was asking about lining his 38-56 may want my assistance to line his rifle- ok, please keep in mind, I am backlogged approx. 8 months.

 

[pls1911]

Pokyman
I have a 1893 .30-30 I want to restore to a very shootable condition.
The rifling is stong, but bore is pittted and is not likely to shoot cast bullets at all.
I'm considering having the bore relined and came across your comments on THR.
Also, if you still perform the work, I'd like a general cost estimate or a referal
Thanks, Paul

 

[NCsmitty]

Welcome to THR, pls1911.

Perhaps if you PM or email Pokyman, he might respond quicker.
I see he was last on THR in May, 2010.

Best of luck.



NCsmitty

 

[TonyT]

I have several rifles with liners installed by Siegrist many years ago. Two are in 25-20 (both Marlins) and a Winchester 1892 in 38-40. They shoot well although I have not shot many rounds through any of them.