38 law enforcement ammunition

MonkTx

MonkTx

Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2005
Messages
114
Pardon me if this is the wrong forum but I didn't see one that fit better.

I'm curious about police ammunition back when the 38/357 ruled the land. I've heard about departments loading their own ammo( I assume this was for training but that's just guessing) , were hollowpoints or lead round nose preferred? What about departments that issued 38's and 357's and short barreled revolvers?
I always wondered what Kojak and crew would have been packing in their short barreled sniper revolvers if they had been real NYC detectives. ;)
 
When my pops worked for the sheriffs dept back in the 80s they had to carry lrn in 38spl. Due to a shooting that happened back in that time. They called them Regie pellets. Everyone hated them. He said some would load hp after inspection. Never thought to ask what he carried.
 
The 158 gr lead round nose .38 spl was very commonly used by LEOs. In 1972 the FBI was dissatisfied with the performance of the LRN bullet and adopted a lead SWC which had superior terminal performance. Then came SuperVel and a whole slew of JHP high velocity loads. Politics played a role in which loads each department allowed.
 
A main staple in the 1980s was the FBI load,
a 158 grain semi wad cutter lead hollow point
plus P .38 Special. It also became known as
the Chicago load, Miami load and St. Louis load
because those PDs adopted it.

Another popular load was the Treasury load, a
110 grain semi jacketed hollow point plus P plus
.38 Special.

Meanwhile, the Illinois State Police for its
Model 39/59 Smith autos had Winchester make
especially for it a 115 grain jacketed hollow point
9mm plus P plus.

I think the LAPD finally came around to plus P .38s
as well. What load I'm not sure.
 
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An agency I worked for issued 4” S&W Model 66 .357 revolvers and Winchester 110 gr JHP ammo until at least 2007. Folks were allowed to buy their own guns so only 2-3 veterans took advantage of the issued revolvers that I worked with (I was there 1994-2007)

I carried my own S&W 686+ 4” with the Win 110 gr JHP for several months on patrol while recovering from a thumb ligament injury back in 2005.

The .38 ammo that agency issued for off duty was a 158 gr +P LSWCHP.

The agency I retired from issued Win 130 gr SXT .38 +P ammo for off duty guns, no revolvers wee ok for on duty use.

Stay safe.
 
My agency issued S&W Model 15s and 158 gr JSP +P ammo. We could carry pretty much any firearm in .38/.357. I had a Colt Trooper Mk III. Then, after the FBI incident in Miami autos started to become the rage. By about 1990 my Dept. adopted the Colt Delta Elite 10mm which was required duty carry.
 
MonkTx said:
Pardon me if this is the wrong forum but I didn't see one that fit better.

I'm curious about police ammunition back when the 38/357 ruled the land. I've heard about departments loading their own ammo( I assume this was for training but that's just guessing) , were hollowpoints or lead round nose preferred? What about departments that issued 38's and 357's and short barreled revolvers?
I always wondered what Kojak and crew would have been packing in their short barreled sniper revolvers if they had been real NYC detectives. ;)
Click to expand...

When I started working as a police officer just about everyone (east coast, MD to MA) carried 38 special. About that time Super Vel had been out for a couple of years. The big boys (WW, RP, and others) started coming out with "high velocity" versions of jhp loads. Many departments were transitioning from RNL.

Some departments loaded practice ammo but I don't know of any department that loaded duty ammo. Many departments liked the 357 but were dissuaded from doing so as the politicians and many police chiefs thought it too powerful. The Treasury +p+ loaded was an attempt to get around this.

A 110 jhp, about 25,000 psi of pressure, going 1100 fps or more seemed to be a way of saying "we're not using magnums" whilst getting better performing ammo. I first encountered this ammo when I left the police department and went to a Federal job. We were told it was safe to use in a j frame. I didn't believe that. My belief proved true when there were a few j frames that kaboomed after a few hundred rounds of Treasury loads. Agents were instructed to only use the Treasury loads in 357s which could easily handle the additional pressure. We had shot up all the inventory by the mid 80s.

The Treasury loads worked well as long as you had a soft target. If you needed to penetrate a barrier they didn't work so well.

What did Kojak and his people carry? Easy answer. About the early 70s NYPD switched from RNL to a standard velocity 158 gr SWC. Jim Cirillo was instrumental in getting NYPD to switch. I used to buy production over runs of this ammo for $5 a box. It waa better than RNL but didn't come close to the performance of a good JHP load. IIRC it wasn't until the early 90s when NYPD authorized JHPs. When NYPD first allowed semiautomatics they required 10 rd magazines and fmj ammo.
 
My first agency, a small municipal police department offered Model 15 S&W’s for issue. If you wanted to carry a personal weapon, it had to be .38/.357, and 4” (3.5” M27 allowed), and had to qualify with it. Supplied ammo was 148gr Wadcutter, but was a very good copper plated remanufactured ammo. Carry/duty was any factory loaded. I carried a Nickel plated M19.

Career agency was a State game and fish agency that issued M65’s. Ammo was 158gr LSWC that was AWFUL! Leaded horribly and as expected, so was accuracy horrible. Typically Wiinchester. However, we could carry any factory loaded ammo, so I initially carried Remington 158gr JHP. Later Winchester 125gr JHP when agency began issuing that.

Circa 1991. We were Issued M686! I opted then to carry Winchester 145gr SilverTip as it has a flash suppressant that dramatically reduces muzzle flash.

In 1996, we transitioned to G22. I retained mine when I retired. Issue ammo was 180gr Ranger SXT but we could carry any factory amm. Practice and qualification was with 180fmj, whatever was cheapest on contract. I opted for 155gr Winchester Silvertips again. Performance on deer confirmed my choice. Later, agency issued 165gr Ranger SXT.
Lately, I understand they have like lemmings, followed the hoard to jump off the cliff for the 9mm. Don’t know what ammunition is issued….
 
When I was with the Fed Bureau of Prisons in the 80s we carried smiths with 158 RN lead . I never heard of any inmates getting **** by one though as the Perimeter CO always went for the 12 gauge 870 which proved persuasive enough to make them stop in their tracks. We were a Youth Corrections prison ( another Carter debacle) so those fools behaved like Cagney and seemed to think they’d not get shot at if they tried to break out. We called it Gladiator School.
One of our idiots got released on Friday and by Monday was broke and thinking where to get some cash. He decides to rob a bank. Unbeknownst to our idiot someone had tipped the FBI office in Denver that some OTHER guy(s) were going to hit a bank locally. They had agents at most of them and out idiot came running out of the bank to find an agent in front of him. Being stupid he then runs at the agent with his knife who according to the paper put 5 rounds all over his chest. The fool somehow lived probably because he was right near a huge trauma center. I’m not sure what they were carrying in 82, I thought it was 357 at the time with 158 gr JHP. Anyways I think he got the message in the end.
 
Thank you all for your replies. I have a fascination with anything old school police having grown up in the 70's-80's with a steady stream of McGarrett, Kojak and Police Story as well as Joseph Wambaugh books and movies.
 
If you want to go way back in the days of yore, like 1968. The Ft. Worth, Texas Police issued the S&W Model 10 heavy bbl. I don't know when they transitioned from the standard barrel to the heavy, but I got a heavy bbl in '68. The Department loaded its own practice ammo. They would have a couple of trainees in the back room at the academy loading ammo as a full time job as they waited for an academy class to begin. They required we carry 158 grain ball ammo. They would furnish the ammo for academy training and requalification, but you had to buy you own duty ammo. I don't ever recall it being checked at roll call inspections. By 1974 I was working for the Secret Service and they had developed the Treasury load. They used that for practice and it was all we were allowed to carry. They did have some wadcutter ammo for their bullseye course. They only awarded the Distinguished Expert classification for the bullseye course shooting one handed unsupported. We were issued a Model 19 2 1/2" bbl. That bullseye course was a challenge to shoot a perfect score with that snubby.
 
I will only speak of the guns and ammunition choices I got to make for my own department, a Sheriff's Department in the Southwest. When I went to the academy in 1973 the requirement was a 4" DA revolver chambered for 38 Special or 357 Magnum. We had to pay for our own guns and when we graduated our own ammunition. I bought a S&W M28-2 for the princely sum of $97.50, with a police discount. I carried 158g JHPs, by Speer, Remington, or Winchester. Unlike most cops I shot a lot and would practice once a week, usually shooting the box of carry ammo every month or so. That was in addition to my Magnum reloads for practice (160 cast bullets over some 2400).

All my shooting back then was DA rapid fire and the M28 kind of beat its self to death. By January of '74 it's timing was off, the bolt would sometimes fail to catch the cylinder notch, and it suffered from end shake. As a replacement I found a used M58 with the best DA trigger I had experienced by then. I tried both 41 Mag offerings from Remington, the so called police load which leaded badly in 1 or 2 cylinders fired, and the full power JHP load which I found recoiled too much to maintain rapid DA control. Both Remington offerings were 210g bullets if I remember correctly. Instead because it was allowed I carried a hand load with my own hard cast 215g SWC ahead of a forgotten charge of Unique. I was hoping for ~ 1000 fps from the 58s 4" barrel but had no chronograph back then to verify my loads performance. The biggest drawback to the Model 58 and its 41 Mag cartridge was a lack of duty gear. Speed loaders had just come on the scene and only 38/357 models were available. Leather makers didn't even offer dump pouches for the 41. I ended up carrying a belt slide holding 12 41s, with two seated part way then the next two seated all the way, then repeat. I practiced pulling two cartridges at a time but it wasn't a reload that inspired confidence.

Then in April of 1974 our department decided to allow the carry of semi-automatic pistols, as long as they were Colt 1911s or Browning P-35s. I went with a brand new MK-IV Series 70 Government Model 45 ACP, and stayed with Colt Government Models and Commanders for the rest of my LEO career. Oh, and I carried Ball because I wanted absolute reliability. Besides, back in those days JHP 45s had a bad reputation for seldom expanding.

Dave

PS: Forgot to add, when my department went to issuing guns and ammunition (about 1978-79) the revolver ammo was Remington 125g SJHP, which I chronographed as Chief Firearms Instructor, at 1425 fps +- from our 4" M-66 issue revolvers.
 
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I got into the LE profession later when revolvers were being phased out in 1999. I don't know what was being issued for the duty carry revolvers, whether .38 Special or .357 which I still saw being carried with both my department and other departments.

For my backup revolver, I was provided Winchester "Ranger" .38 Special 125 grain +P:
https://winchesterle.com/Ammunition/Products/Handgun/Ranger-Bonded/RA38B

but I didn't have to carry or use it (that ammo) for a backup gun, but I did carry that ammo anyway as it was likely good stuff and still in WinchesterLE's catalog today.
 
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LAPD switched to JHP in 1990. They and NYPD were among the last big police departments to do so. Most agencies started switching in the 70s.

I previously mentioned all the big ammo manufacturers started coming out with their "high velocity" ammo in the 70s. One load I remember was RP 38 spl 95 gr jhp. This came out as the winner of the FBI "Computer Man" tests in the 70s. This test concentrated on energy transfer. Penetration wasnt considered. Don't know of it being used but I'm guessing performance was similar to the Treasury Load. Probably worked great on soft targets but had no penetration.

The FBI switched their focus to penetration after the Miami shootout in the 80s. I saw the after action reports including medical examiner reports. 9mm Silvertip got a bad rap there. IIRC the bad guy that was hit with the Silvertip took the bullet through his arm, into his chest, it took out a section of his brachial artery and stopped 1" from his heart. He was going to die but not right away. The bullet had penetrated 11". The bullet had performed as it was designed and expanded rapidly. The FBI then adopted 12" of penetration with their ballistic gel tests.

You can get that 12" of penetration with a lot of calibers many would consider inadequate for SD. These include the 32 S&W Long, 32 ACP, and 380 ACP. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying there isn't something to caliber and hollowpoints. However if you hit the right place, even with an "inadequate" caliber, it will work. Nothing beats shot placement.
 
monk, I started in '73. We were issued 4" S&W Model 10s, most with heavy barrels but some with light barrels. A few Colt Official Police revolvers were issued. IIRC, duty ammo was 125 grain JHP .38+P by Winchester and Remington. Practice ammo was lead bullet .38 Spcl. loaded at the range by jail trustees. Detectives were issued S&W model 60s, and 90 grain JHP ammo. Don't recall the manufacturer of the 90 grain ammo. We were allowed to qualify and carry personally owned Colt and S&W .357 revolvers, but still limited to carrying the issued .38+P ammo.

It wasn't until some years later than officers were allowed to to carry .357 ammo, IF an officer was able to qualify with it. Due to blast, flash, recoil, etc., not all officers that wanted to, were able to qualify to carry the .357 ammo. Ammo was 125 grain .357 JHP Winchester or Remington, whichever had the current contract.

Around '86 or '87, personally owned SIGs and a couple other types of 9mm pistols were allowed as a primary weapon option. I know at some point we were issued 147 grain standard pressure 9mm, but other than Remington, don't recall other manufacturers or other bullet weights, we may have been issued through the years..
 
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Grunt said:
Well, if you want to add in military, the Air Force before adoption of the M9 were some of the last revolver holdouts with the Security Police using 130 grain FMJ in S&W Model 15 revolvers.
Click to expand...

That waa standard issue for everyone in USAF in Vietnam. Army pilots carried the same load in Model 10s until the M9 came around.
 
My agency (NIS back in the day, now NCIS) was issued Winchester 38 Special +P+, which had a 110 grain JHP. White box with a big red "Winchester" on it and marked "Not For Retail Sale". I still have one pristine box of it. That was when we carried revolvers and of course we could not carry .357 ammo, as it was not as friendly sounding in the press. It's pretty stout ammo too, especially in a J-frame Chief's Special.
 
Our city PD carried Smith 65's chambered in 357 mag prior to 1994 when they changed to Smith 5906's in 9mm. The city commissioner's were concerned about the optics of carrying 357 mag ammo so our department carried 125 gr +P+ 38 Specials.

The real-world performance was virtually the same as standard 357 mag ammo, but it looked better politically.

FWIW, our county PD officers and Sheriff's deputies furnished their own weapons and could carry anything they could qualify with. I saw everything from Smith 29's in 44 mag to Browing High Powers with 5 spare magazines. A few 1911's thrown in. But most carried Smith 66 or 686 loaded with 357 mag ammo. They standardized in Glock 22's the same year the city went to 5906's
 
The image the .357 comes from both S&W's
promotion of the round and Hollywood representations.

The word "magnum" came to mean super kill power.
Remember "Magnum Force" with Eastwood. Of
course at its inception it was promoted as a superior
handgun hunting round.

As one officer told me years ago, he wished the round
had been given another promotional name, maybe just
"Police Duty .38 Special."

.
 
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