Blue Brick
Member
Anyone like 38 Spl 147gr +P+ Hydra shoks? I plan to use them in an S&W M-15.
P38HS2G 900 880 870 265 255 245 -0.9 0 -1.9 4-V
P38HS2G 900 880 870 265 255 245 -0.9 0 -1.9 4-V
38 +p+
- Thread starter Blue Brick
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Jim March
Member
Unless you KNOW what you've got and what your gun can take, avoid 38Spl+P+ like the plague.
Here's why.
In the mid to late '70s the standard law enforcement sidearm in the US was the 357 wheelgun. Mostly S&W, some Colts. The "Dirty Harry" series had made the work "Magnum" a bad name, and cops didn't want to admit they were shooting "Evil Magnums" on the witness stand.
So in conjunction with major ammo houses, a conspiracy developed in order to allow cops to lie in court.
MOST 38+P+ ammo was designed to be shot out of 357 guns, and came so close to 357 performance as to be basically mis-named and slightly shortened 357Mag ammo.
Cops that shot it out of 38snub backup guns shot them loose in short order and sometimes experienced k'booms.
Now. I don't know much about this stuff. IF the performance numbers you posted are accurate, this is very mild by 38+P+ standards. I would NOT trust those numbers without running a few past a chrony. To be honest, I wouldn't shoot them out of a 38 gun at all, given the BS record behind the 38+P+.
The other thing is, that ammo is likely fairly old. There are better bullet designs today.
Get ahold of some Speer 135gr 38+P, or the Remmington 158+P "old school" lead hollowpoint. The latter is likely the cheapest round available that works well out of snubbies. If your barrel is 4" or more, Winchester has a similar slug with similar performance, slightly harder lead so it fails in snubs but works great from 4" or more tubes.
Don't stick a known fraud in your gun, at least not unless it's a real 357 gun.
Here's why.
In the mid to late '70s the standard law enforcement sidearm in the US was the 357 wheelgun. Mostly S&W, some Colts. The "Dirty Harry" series had made the work "Magnum" a bad name, and cops didn't want to admit they were shooting "Evil Magnums" on the witness stand.
So in conjunction with major ammo houses, a conspiracy developed in order to allow cops to lie in court.
MOST 38+P+ ammo was designed to be shot out of 357 guns, and came so close to 357 performance as to be basically mis-named and slightly shortened 357Mag ammo.
Cops that shot it out of 38snub backup guns shot them loose in short order and sometimes experienced k'booms.
Now. I don't know much about this stuff. IF the performance numbers you posted are accurate, this is very mild by 38+P+ standards. I would NOT trust those numbers without running a few past a chrony. To be honest, I wouldn't shoot them out of a 38 gun at all, given the BS record behind the 38+P+.
The other thing is, that ammo is likely fairly old. There are better bullet designs today.
Get ahold of some Speer 135gr 38+P, or the Remmington 158+P "old school" lead hollowpoint. The latter is likely the cheapest round available that works well out of snubbies. If your barrel is 4" or more, Winchester has a similar slug with similar performance, slightly harder lead so it fails in snubs but works great from 4" or more tubes.
Don't stick a known fraud in your gun, at least not unless it's a real 357 gun.
MrTuffPaws
Member
Depends on the barrel length. If you use a snub, I doubt they will give you much more performance over a standard pressure load.
bdg146
Member
If I remember correctly, there is no standard as to what is considered +p+. +p is standardized, but +p+ isn't, meaning that when you buy +p+, you're really not guaranteed to get anything. The pressure could be slightly over +p, and minimal performance gain will be seen, or the pressure could be close to magnum pressures, and you could destroy your .38 special. For me, I would stick to something where I know what I'm getting... the standardized +p ammo. Although, I suppose .38 special +p+ would be safe in a .357 mag. Even so, you still don't know exactly what you're getting.
So yeah, basically what Jim March said
So yeah, basically what Jim March said
jfh
Member.
Well, what is +P+, anyway?
Jim March, I think you have finally given us the basis for the fabled SR-4756 loads in the Speer #8 manual. (That is 8 gr under a 158 gr Lead--in a 38 Special case--and that is the start load: It goes on up to 10-11-12 gr, IIRC.) By contrast, Hodgdon stops the current SR-4756 / 38 special loads at 5.6 grains....)
This last year I got intrigued with the Speer 38+P 135 gr loads and went to work with the recipes they had published. To make a long story short, I sorted out "replica loads" of the factory round using both the Speer GDSB135JHP bullet and 140LTCs. That's nominally 860 to 900 fps from a 2" barrel.
SAMMI has recently reduced the 38+P recommended spec to 18,500. Speer uses 20,000 (a former SAMMI spec, I believe) for their '+P' ceiling. I've been experimenting with the Speer recipes and have pushed them beyond their MAX load "a bit"--like .2 gr. or so. Chrono results started wobbling, so I stopped there. Calcs done show this particular load (AA#5) and similar velocities generated by WSF show loads that are probably still under 21,000.
I also 'translated' these 38+P loads into ballistic equivalents in 357 cases, and I have tweaked them a bit more. A guess for now is that none of the 357-case recipes are beyond 22,000--maybe 24,000. That's a relatively low-pressure 357 round, especially if you use the older 357 spec of 42,000 or even 46,000 (the original spec). Currently, SAMMI is calling the 357 max is 35,000.
And, of course, I can work my way up to full-house 357 loads--or, as is my intent, towards a replica load for the 357 Magnum GDSB 135-gr load--nominally 970 to 1000 fps.
I do shoot these loads from 357-frame j-frames. The point is, one can build "+P+" loads yourself that are based in modern recipes, and not necessarily out of the historical context Jim has cited.
Why would I do this? Well, the Speer GDSB 38+P ammo runs about $1.00 per round in the typical consumer box of 20, or about $.52 per round in the LE box of 50. The reloads with the 140 LTC run about $.10 to $.12 a round with the 140LTC, and feel the same as the factory round.
I've shot about 6000 of them in my two 2" guns in the last seven-eight months. (Needless to say, I am now proficient at DAO shooting in a lightweight--and I'll get better.)
Jim H.
Jim March, I think you have finally given us the basis for the fabled SR-4756 loads in the Speer #8 manual. (That is 8 gr under a 158 gr Lead--in a 38 Special case--and that is the start load: It goes on up to 10-11-12 gr, IIRC.) By contrast, Hodgdon stops the current SR-4756 / 38 special loads at 5.6 grains....)
This last year I got intrigued with the Speer 38+P 135 gr loads and went to work with the recipes they had published. To make a long story short, I sorted out "replica loads" of the factory round using both the Speer GDSB135JHP bullet and 140LTCs. That's nominally 860 to 900 fps from a 2" barrel.
SAMMI has recently reduced the 38+P recommended spec to 18,500. Speer uses 20,000 (a former SAMMI spec, I believe) for their '+P' ceiling. I've been experimenting with the Speer recipes and have pushed them beyond their MAX load "a bit"--like .2 gr. or so. Chrono results started wobbling, so I stopped there. Calcs done show this particular load (AA#5) and similar velocities generated by WSF show loads that are probably still under 21,000.
I also 'translated' these 38+P loads into ballistic equivalents in 357 cases, and I have tweaked them a bit more. A guess for now is that none of the 357-case recipes are beyond 22,000--maybe 24,000. That's a relatively low-pressure 357 round, especially if you use the older 357 spec of 42,000 or even 46,000 (the original spec). Currently, SAMMI is calling the 357 max is 35,000.
And, of course, I can work my way up to full-house 357 loads--or, as is my intent, towards a replica load for the 357 Magnum GDSB 135-gr load--nominally 970 to 1000 fps.
I do shoot these loads from 357-frame j-frames. The point is, one can build "+P+" loads yourself that are based in modern recipes, and not necessarily out of the historical context Jim has cited.
Why would I do this? Well, the Speer GDSB 38+P ammo runs about $1.00 per round in the typical consumer box of 20, or about $.52 per round in the LE box of 50. The reloads with the 140 LTC run about $.10 to $.12 a round with the 140LTC, and feel the same as the factory round.
I've shot about 6000 of them in my two 2" guns in the last seven-eight months. (Needless to say, I am now proficient at DAO shooting in a lightweight--and I'll get better.)
Jim H.
351 WINCHESTER
Member
I've shot at least 400 +P+ treasury loads from one of my 640's with no ill effects whatsoever. I knew someone who shot some in a s & w airweight and it stretched the frame so much it wouldn't fire. W/W and Federal loaded their treasury loads up 15% above saami to about 23,500 C.U.P. I would not hesitate to shoot it again out of my 640 or any other smith steel frame of recent mfg.
Some of corbon's earlier +P ammo was actually much hotter than the treasury load. So hot that I only shot a few cylinders of them and deceided it wasn't worth the risk.
Some of corbon's earlier +P ammo was actually much hotter than the treasury load. So hot that I only shot a few cylinders of them and deceided it wasn't worth the risk.
MCgunner
Member
Not in my alloy gun. I wouldn't subject ANY J frame to that much pressure, really, steel, titanium, whatever. .357, sure.
Anyway, .38 +P is plenty effective for self defense. No since pounding your gun even if it hasn't blown up on you........yet.....
Anyway, .38 +P is plenty effective for self defense. No since pounding your gun even if it hasn't blown up on you........yet.....
chipperi
Member
I would only shoot it out of a 357. I got a crap load of Winchester 38spl +p++ marked "Law Enforcement Use Only" and holy cow it kicked harder that any .357 I had ever fired. This was out of a Rossi 357 with a 6" compensated barrel. I would not even consider shooting it through a standard 38.
OP
OP
Blue Brick
Member
jaholder1971
Member
I fired some 147 grain +P+ out of a M19 4" barrel years ago soon after the round fell out of favor with the FBI, I believe it was around 1994. I didn't notice any more or less recoil than the old FBI loads and was definitely less recoil than a normal .357 Magnum.
I don't like the muzzle flip when using "+p" rounds in my Model 67 (stainless M15). Whatever "+p+" is, I wouldn't even begin to go there. +p .38s are very comfortable for me when shooting my Model 66, likely due to its heavier barrel and cylinder. I'd feel bad for running hot .38s through an M-15 or M-67. They weren't designed for stupendously hot stuff.
If you desire hot .38s, why not simply go with .357 Magnum and be done with it?
If you desire hot .38s, why not simply go with .357 Magnum and be done with it?
fearless leader
Member
WAIT! I have a terrific idea! It can't miss!
Buy a .357! Hell, you could even shoot magnums in it.
Buy a .357! Hell, you could even shoot magnums in it.
FWIW the current (at least as of Oct 2008) SAAMI Z299.3-1993 publiction indicates a max. probable mean sample pressure of 21,200 copper units of pressure for the 158gr +P .38 Special; 19,900 using the piezoelectric transducer system. As stated above there is no standard for the +P+.
I carry the Speer GD 135 gr +P, it clocks 835 - 845 fps out of my 637 and the recoil is a bit snappy, but I was very pleased with the performance of the ammo on a coyote I managed to connect with.
I carry the Speer GD 135 gr +P, it clocks 835 - 845 fps out of my 637 and the recoil is a bit snappy, but I was very pleased with the performance of the ammo on a coyote I managed to connect with.
jfh
Member.
Will5A1: Thanks for that update. Do you have a link handy, or could you elaborate a bit more on how SAAMI produces these limits? I understand the concept of the max probable mean, but to what "level," so to speak....
Jim H.
Jim H.
spwenger
Member
Here's What I Was Told
The Los Angeles Sheriff's Department was one of many departments in California that issued the Federal 38F-TD load, a 110 gr. +P+, loaded in a .38 Special case that was not even stamped .38 Special because the load was intended for use in .357 Mgnum revolvers.
I was told by a reliable source that S&W learned that this round was being issued for use in LASD-issue M-15 revolvers and contacted LASD to advise that such use would invalidate the warranties. S&W offered a trade-in for M-66's (I'm not sure if M-19's were an option), which LASD rejected. My friend advised me that a few months after that, the newer Federal 38F-TD loads issued by LASD dropped in velocity.
The California Highway Patrol, which went to the same load in the aftermath of the 1970 Newhall incident, had S&W build them a run of M-68 revolvers, which were essentially 6" M-66's with .38 Special chambers.
Instructors at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center observed that the M-66 revolvers that had seen heavy use of the +P+ "Treasury load" would experience difficulty extracting .357 Magnum cases. This was traced to erosion of the chamber wall in the space between the end of the .38 Special case and the chamber throat, which was located to allow chambering the Magnum loads. The Magnum cases could expand into the erosions, preventing smooth extraction. S&W currently cautions against using Magnum loads with bullet weights under 120 gr. in their .357 Magnum revolvers with titatnium cyllinders, due to potential erosion of the cylinder face from the fast-burning powders that all these loads use.
Personally, if I was not satisfied with some of the excellent +P .38 Special loads on the market (e.g., CorBon's 110 gr. DPX, Speer's 135 gr. SB Gold Dot, etc.), I'd go to .357 Magnum and choose the load in that chambering that best met my needs. Some choices among the Magnum loads include the traditional 110 gr. SJHP (so long as it's not used in a gun with a titanium cylinder), the 125 gr. "mid-velocity" Remington Golden Saber, the 135 gr. Speer SB Gold Dot and the 125 gr. CorBon DPX.
The Los Angeles Sheriff's Department was one of many departments in California that issued the Federal 38F-TD load, a 110 gr. +P+, loaded in a .38 Special case that was not even stamped .38 Special because the load was intended for use in .357 Mgnum revolvers.
I was told by a reliable source that S&W learned that this round was being issued for use in LASD-issue M-15 revolvers and contacted LASD to advise that such use would invalidate the warranties. S&W offered a trade-in for M-66's (I'm not sure if M-19's were an option), which LASD rejected. My friend advised me that a few months after that, the newer Federal 38F-TD loads issued by LASD dropped in velocity.
The California Highway Patrol, which went to the same load in the aftermath of the 1970 Newhall incident, had S&W build them a run of M-68 revolvers, which were essentially 6" M-66's with .38 Special chambers.
Instructors at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center observed that the M-66 revolvers that had seen heavy use of the +P+ "Treasury load" would experience difficulty extracting .357 Magnum cases. This was traced to erosion of the chamber wall in the space between the end of the .38 Special case and the chamber throat, which was located to allow chambering the Magnum loads. The Magnum cases could expand into the erosions, preventing smooth extraction. S&W currently cautions against using Magnum loads with bullet weights under 120 gr. in their .357 Magnum revolvers with titatnium cyllinders, due to potential erosion of the cylinder face from the fast-burning powders that all these loads use.
Personally, if I was not satisfied with some of the excellent +P .38 Special loads on the market (e.g., CorBon's 110 gr. DPX, Speer's 135 gr. SB Gold Dot, etc.), I'd go to .357 Magnum and choose the load in that chambering that best met my needs. Some choices among the Magnum loads include the traditional 110 gr. SJHP (so long as it's not used in a gun with a titanium cylinder), the 125 gr. "mid-velocity" Remington Golden Saber, the 135 gr. Speer SB Gold Dot and the 125 gr. CorBon DPX.
Jeff F
Member
If you want .357 performance, shoot .357's out of a .357. No reason to keep hot loaded .38's around. If they were to get mixed up and shot out of the wrong .38 bad things could happen.
OP
OP
Blue Brick
Member
Gee…. I never thought a 147gr bullet at 900 FPS would be considered a magnum, considering a 357 is around 1450 FPS. I will call Federal and S&W and post their answers. I called S&W years ago and they said I could shoot heavy +P loads out of my M-15.
jfh - Your quoted figure of 18,500 PSI is accurate, and I should of seen that this morning, but wasn't looking close enough. 18.5K is the "Maximum Average Pressure (MAP)" for the 158gr .38 Special +P using the piezoelectric transducer system (PSI), 20K using the Copper Units of Measure (CUP)method, and the MAP is "the recommended maximum pressure level for loading commercial sporting ammunition". The other two pressure levels listed in the SAAMI standard, Maximum Probable Lot Mean and Maximum Probable Sample Mean, one of which I posted above, are probably not germane to this posting, I should of looked more closely at the tables.
As I understand it the SAAMI standards are established by the organization's members, and were first published, at least for centerfire pistol and revolver ammunition, in the 1970's; the publication I'm looking at has a 1993 date with some changes added since then for newly introduced cartridges. The SAAMI website does not, or did not, have any specifications listed, you have to buy the book or CD. The organization is a voluntary one, so I pressume loading companies, even if they are SAAMI members, can choose to set their own pressure standards.
As an aside FWIW, I have a CHP marked S&W M68 that has a lot of endplay and some topstrap cutting, and I have to wonder if that isn't due to some very heavy +P+ loads being run through the revolver when it was in service.
As I understand it the SAAMI standards are established by the organization's members, and were first published, at least for centerfire pistol and revolver ammunition, in the 1970's; the publication I'm looking at has a 1993 date with some changes added since then for newly introduced cartridges. The SAAMI website does not, or did not, have any specifications listed, you have to buy the book or CD. The organization is a voluntary one, so I pressume loading companies, even if they are SAAMI members, can choose to set their own pressure standards.
As an aside FWIW, I have a CHP marked S&W M68 that has a lot of endplay and some topstrap cutting, and I have to wonder if that isn't due to some very heavy +P+ loads being run through the revolver when it was in service.
spwenger
Member
+P Is Not +P+
Will it blow up the gun? Not likely as LASD got away with it for years. However, whille most deputies carried this load on the street (privately purchased 125 gr. +P SJHP's were optional), qualifications were shot with 130 gr. standard-pressure FMJ's and most deputies did not do much shooting between qualifications, which were every other month at that time, if I recall correctly. With that in mind, it's not likely that any particular LASD-issue M-15 was ever fired with many +P+ loads
Will +P+ ammo accelerate the wear on your M-15? Quite likely. Since S&W doesn't build its revolvers the same way anymore, I won't be firing any +P+ ammo through mine (and I've still got a few boxes of the stuff that LASD issued).
See my comments above (#16). I will be very interested to hear if S&W tells yout to go ahead and shoot +P+ in an M-15.
Will it blow up the gun? Not likely as LASD got away with it for years. However, whille most deputies carried this load on the street (privately purchased 125 gr. +P SJHP's were optional), qualifications were shot with 130 gr. standard-pressure FMJ's and most deputies did not do much shooting between qualifications, which were every other month at that time, if I recall correctly. With that in mind, it's not likely that any particular LASD-issue M-15 was ever fired with many +P+ loads
Will +P+ ammo accelerate the wear on your M-15? Quite likely. Since S&W doesn't build its revolvers the same way anymore, I won't be firing any +P+ ammo through mine (and I've still got a few boxes of the stuff that LASD issued).
OP
OP
Blue Brick
Member
When I called S&W and they did ask for the serial # (Grandpa bought it in the early 60’s), but I have a hard time believing that Federal manufactures a round that is higher than the SAAMI specifications. Never the less I will call Federal and S&W and confirm the pressure rating.
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Jim March
Member
The reason this stuff is almost always marked "for law enforcement use only" is that the manufacturers told the police armorers what was going on with this stuff but nobody else. Like I said: the whole thing was a fraud from the beginning.
jfh
Member.
About those SAAMI Specs:
Some of us have reference sets of earlier specifications from SAAMI--I can't put my hands on an authoritative set right now, however.
At any rate, we do know that in the '70s, the 357 Magnum SAAMI spec was 46,000--that's an indirect quote from an authoritative resource quoting the Speer #10 manual, on page 364.
I also know that, as late as the 2003(?) AA 3.2 manual, they quoted PSIs as high as 45,100. In 2004, SAAMI lowered the 357 Magnum spec to 35,000. Currently, the maximum load Hodgdon lists for SR-4756 is under 30,000--all this was noted above.
So, when you call S&W, find out if the 357 Magnums they built in 1970 should only be fired with ammo built in 2008. And, ask Federal if their current 357 Magnum ammo goes no higher thatn the current SAMMI spec, or the 1993 spec, or the '70s spec.
And, Keep in mind that SAAMI is an association of component manufacturers, not a regulatory agency.
Jim H.
Some of us have reference sets of earlier specifications from SAAMI--I can't put my hands on an authoritative set right now, however.
At any rate, we do know that in the '70s, the 357 Magnum SAAMI spec was 46,000--that's an indirect quote from an authoritative resource quoting the Speer #10 manual, on page 364.
I also know that, as late as the 2003(?) AA 3.2 manual, they quoted PSIs as high as 45,100. In 2004, SAAMI lowered the 357 Magnum spec to 35,000. Currently, the maximum load Hodgdon lists for SR-4756 is under 30,000--all this was noted above.
So, when you call S&W, find out if the 357 Magnums they built in 1970 should only be fired with ammo built in 2008. And, ask Federal if their current 357 Magnum ammo goes no higher thatn the current SAMMI spec, or the 1993 spec, or the '70s spec.
And, Keep in mind that SAAMI is an association of component manufacturers, not a regulatory agency.
Jim H.
I have many boxes of the Winchester 110 grain SJHP +P+ 38 special "Law Enforcement Only". The rounds are left over from the late eighties and was issued by the Idaho State Police to the troopers for use in the S&W Model 65.
I inherited the rounds when ISP went to the S&W 4586. I used to shoot them in my .357 magnums, but I've fire many of the them through my S&W 6.5" Outdoorsman (mfd. 1953) with no ill-effects. The old 38/44 load was easily in the realm of the +P+m load if my research is correct. The Outdoorsman handles the +P+ without any difficulty.
Thought some of the S&W fans would find that interesting.
I inherited the rounds when ISP went to the S&W 4586. I used to shoot them in my .357 magnums, but I've fire many of the them through my S&W 6.5" Outdoorsman (mfd. 1953) with no ill-effects. The old 38/44 load was easily in the realm of the +P+m load if my research is correct. The Outdoorsman handles the +P+ without any difficulty.
Thought some of the S&W fans would find that interesting.
RustyShackelford
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147gr loads...
I'm not down with any 147gr JHP loads, either in 9mmNATO or .38spl.
A subject was hit by a SWAT officer with a 147gr +P+ 9mmNATO round. The recovered bullet went totally into the BG then got caught in building material. The round was not dented or expanded and could be reloaded into another case!
TRUE STORY!
Rusty
I'm not down with any 147gr JHP loads, either in 9mmNATO or .38spl.
A subject was hit by a SWAT officer with a 147gr +P+ 9mmNATO round. The recovered bullet went totally into the BG then got caught in building material. The round was not dented or expanded and could be reloaded into another case!
TRUE STORY!
Rusty
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