38 S&W in a 38 Special/357 Mag Revolver?

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Left to right: My reloaded 38/200R (200gr bullet in a 38 S&W case for my Webley Mk IV), Remington 146gr 38 S&W, PPU 145gr 38 S&W, Remington 125gr 38 Short Colt. My reloaded 160gr 38 Short Colt.

38 S&W and 38 Short Colt are very close to each other.
38 S&W has a nominal base diameter of .387 and case length of .775
38 S-C has a nominal base diameter of .379 and a case length of .765

The last time we discussed these two rounds. I tried and fond that Remington 38 S&W would not chamber in my S&W 627, but would chamber in my S&W Model 10, S&W Model 442, and Ruger Blackhawk convertable.

-rambling.
 
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So......the 38 Short Colt could be fired from a 38 Special/357 Mag revolver?
 
Yes, They used to tell you.
My old Stoegers lcatalog shows Colt revolvers for:
"Ammunition: .38 Short Colt, .38 Long Colt, .38 Colt Special, .38 S&W Special (high and midrange loads), .38 Colt Special High Speed, .38 S&W Special High Speed, and .38-44 S&W Special cartridges in .38 caliber model."

And of course the S&W .357 Magnum:
"Ammunition: .357 S&W Magnum, .38 S&W High Velocity, .38 S&W Special, .38 S&W Super Police, .38 Special Mid Range."
No mention of Colt variants by Smith.
 
Magtech makes a ".38 Special Short." I don't know how it compares to .38 SC or .38 LC in case length. But it is modern inside lubricated groove diameter bullet with none of the kluge to try to modernize BP era cartridges.
 
So....at some point, I could get another cowboy action birdshead revolver and get the 38 special short. Good to know!
 
The .38 Short Colt and .38 Short Special are compatible with .38 Special and are popular with action shooters because they eject well from revolvers.

Personally I would load cases marked .38 Short Colt to .38 Short Colt spex only to avoid inherited ammo getting used in a old .38 SC or .38 S&W gun not rated for .38 Special.

(The few times I have handloaded to .38/44 spex I used .357 cases.)
 
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A coworker gave me 2 new boxes of Remington 38 S&W LRN. After reading this topic, I tried to load them. All 6 chambers loaded in my daughters new Taurus 856. I was able to drop 3-4 in my 1966 S&W model 28-2. The other chambers required the cartridge to be pushed in to be flush. I had to moderately tap on the ejection rod to get the loaded shells back out. They fell freely from the 856. I didn't try loading my model 10-8 or 15-3.
 
jar said:
I haven't found much difference in sound between my 38S&W and 38Special revolvers. Certainly nothing like half as loud.

Three of my most often enjoyed 38 S&W revolvers:

View attachment 1150671

View attachment 1150675

From the top an early pre-model numbers H&R most likely made in 1938; S&W DA Model 4 from 1903 and a Colt Police Positive from 1926.
Click to expand...
Nice group. Mine is a nickel regulation police. Supposed to have been owned by the chief of police in Atlanta in the 30's
 
I inherited 2 break-top "suicide special" revolvers from my step-grandfather back in the '60s. One was an H&R and the other was a "Secret Service Special" made by, IIRC, Iver Johnson.
They were both POS junkers.
I loaded them with .38 S&W cases sized in a .38 Super die and full wadcutters over black powder, because an old guy at my LGS told me they were made in the 1800s, before smokeless powder.
He may have been right. I don't know.
I dumped them for $50 each at a "gun-buy-back" the local police were running about 25 years ago. Don't miss them at all.
 
From my short foray into .38 S&W handloading, left are Remington cases from a batch of factory cartridges gifted to me; right are Star cases true to original .38 S&W specifications.

I shot the Remington .38 S&W factory cartridges to have a few extra cases. They fit and fired in my Ruger Security Six. The Remington .38 S&W cases would fit the smallest chamber on my Rossi .38.

The Star .38 S&W cases would not chamber in any of my .38 Spl/.357 Mag revolvers. They would chamber in my Forehand & Wadsworth antique revolver marked .38 S&W.

I would not count on just any .38 S&W fitting a .38 Special/.357 Magnum revolver.

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Paul Harrell is often and usually a valuable source on ballistics.
He sure goes through a lot of pork ribs, oranges, denim jackets'
and "high tech" fleecy backstops. :):):)
 
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I continue to be amazed at the number of people who want to shoot ammunition not meant for their guns. I'm not talking about the whole 38 Short, 38 Long, 38 Special, 357 Magnum thing. That's all the same cartridge in shorter and shorter versions. I'm referring to people who want to shoot 38 S&W in guns chambered for the 38 Spl/357 Mag, as long as they can force it in the chamber, or someone wanting to shoot 38 Super in a revolver because it kind of head spaces on the semi rim. There are other examples.

I don't get it, I really don't. Particularly when someone says, "Because I can". You don't jump off the 4th floor of a building "because you can".

OK, rant over. I'm getting old and I need to take my meds in about an hour. LOL

Dave
 
Dave T said:
I continue to be amazed at the number of people who want to shoot ammunition not meant for their guns. I'm not talking about the whole 38 Short, 38 Long, 38 Special, 357 Magnum thing. That's all the same cartridge in shorter and shorter versions. I'm referring to people who want to shoot 38 S&W in guns chambered for the 38 Spl/357 Mag, as long as they can force it in the chamber, or someone wanting to shoot 38 Super in a revolver because it kind of head spaces on the semi rim. There are other examples.

I don't get it, I really don't. Particularly when someone says, "Because I can". You don't jump off the 4th floor of a building "because you can".

OK, rant over. I'm getting old and I need to take my meds in about an hour. LOL

Dave
Click to expand...

I agree, shoot the right ammo in the right chamber. That said there are some interesting cross compatibilities some are safe and widely accepted, some are for more desperate times and some are just rolling the Darwin dice. I have yet to run into a gun that I can't find the correct ammo and or reloading supplies for and I have some real odd balls in my collection. Shoot the right ammo.
 
A 38 S&W round will NOT chamber in any of the following revolvers ...

S&W J-Frame - 38 special
S&W K-Frame - 38 special (model 64)
Colt Police Positive Special - 38 special
S&W model 19 - 357 magnum
Ruger BlackHawk - 357 magnum

I tried a 38 S&W round in every chamber of every revolver ... none would chamber , they would enter but being too fat , would only go in about 1/2 way ... not even close to chambering .
The 38 S&W ammo is factory Winchester 38 Smith & Wesson , 145 gr. Lead RN # X38SWP .

So this test should put to rest the idea that 38 S&W will chamber in 38 special / 357 magnum revolvers ...They Will NOT .
Gary
 
gwpercle said:
A 38 S&W round will NOT chamber in any of the following revolvers ...

S&W J-Frame - 38 special
S&W K-Frame - 38 special (model 64)
Colt Police Positive Special - 38 special
S&W model 19 - 357 magnum
Ruger BlackHawk - 357 magnum

I tried a 38 S&W round in every chamber of every revolver ... none would chamber , they would enter but being too fat , would only go in about 1/2 way ... not even close to chambering .
The 38 S&W ammo is factory Winchester 38 Smith & Wesson , 145 gr. Lead RN # X38SWP .

So this test should put to rest the idea that 38 S&W will chamber in 38 special / 357 magnum revolvers ...They Will NOT .
Gary
Click to expand...
Watch the video I posted above from Paul Harrel, he has several 38/357 revolvers that will chamber 38 S&W ammunition. In my own collection I tried and found that Remington's 38 S&W ammunition would not chamber in my S&W 627 (357 Mag), but would chamber fully in my S&W Model 10 (38 Special), S&W Model 442 (38 Special), and Ruger Blackhawk convertible (357 Magnum).
 
I think a lot is going to depend on the gun and on the ammo. The only 38 S&W that will chamber in any of my 38's/357's that I tried it in, is a lot of Remington brass that I got when I bought my first 38S&W and couldnt find any 38 S&W to shoot. The Remington was all there was to be found after stopping at three different shops and the last one had one box of "target", and it was $35/50.

The bulk of what I load is Starline brass, and that brass hasn't chambered in any of the same guns the Remingtons will. The Remington, new in the box, or reloaded does, and very easily, so Im assuming the Remington brass isnt as hefty as the Starline, which is usually the case with any of the Remington brass Ive used in the past, and not just 38S&W.

Just kind of a slight sidetrack here too but it is kind of related. If you have one of the 38 S&W military guns, it seems it was popular after the war to bore the chambers out a bit so they would take 38Spl. Once I started to pick those guns up, and saw the results of firing the 38Spl brass in 38S&W chambers, the first thing I ask when I see one is, can you drop a 38Spl in the chamber? If it goes, I pass.

They sorta work OK, but if you reload, youre not going to be happy about losing brass.
 
Get ready I am about to ramble with pictures! I went and tried again just for fun. This time I tried three types of 38 S&W ammo.

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Left to Right: PPU 38 S&W, Remington 38 S&W, and my own reloaded 38/200 in CBC (Magtech) 38 S&W brass (got to feed the Webley good and proper ammo).

My S&W 442 Moonclip (cause moonclips RULE!)
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Remington drops right in, PPU almost goes, and my 38/200 goes almost half way.

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S&W Model 10, Remington goes all the way in with very gentle pressure, PPU, and 38/200 goes about 1/4 of the way.

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S&W 627, Remington about half way. PPU and 38/200 don't get past my heavy chamfer. (yes she is dirty, I like her that way)

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Ruger Blackhawk Convertible, Remington drops in, PPU almost goes almost all the way, 38/200 just starts.

I took some measurements of just a couple of each and mentally averaged them. They were pretty consistent in their own lots.

Remington
Mouth: .3800
Base: .3820
Bullet: .3565 (Though technically in SAAMI spec, Remington you lazy bums use the right bullet diameter!)

PPU
Mouth: .3825
Base: .3835
Bullet: .3610

My 38/200 reloads (CBC brass)
Mouth: .3835
Base: .3835
Bullet: .3610

Now if we look at SAAMI spec for 38 S&W ammunition
Mouth: .3855 +.000/-.006
Base: .3863 +.000/-.006
Bullet: .3610 +.000/-.006

If we compare that to permissible 38 Special chamber
Mouth: .3801 +.004/-.000
Base: .3809 +.004/-.000

Given the evidence above and an analysis of the SAAMI specs it is completely plausible to have certain in-spec 38 S&W ammo that will go into in-spec 38 Special chamber and yet in another incident have in-spec 38 S&W that will not go to in-spec 38 special chambers. Tolerances can be a bitch...

Rambling...
 
My .38Spl 71-72 Open Top seemed loud, shooting it in an indoor range. It has a tight cylinder gap.
I think the issue is the open top; it lets lots of noise straight out the top. That doesn't happen with a top strap.
I've been feeding a former Richards-Mason, and now the Open Top, with full charge wadcutters. They are loaded to the same velocity as the old RNL .38 Spl. They have shown no pressure problems.
Moon
 
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