.38 S&W VS .38 spl

[Gordon]

Identical 1955 nickle plated J frame 2" guns, one .38 S&W (Terrier) and one .38 spl (Chief's Special) ran a cylinder full of Winchester .38 S&W 145 grain lead loads from the early 90s and got 590 FPS with very low variance; 9 fps difference between hi and low ! Very mellow low recoil load with a medium sized POP. Fiocchi 145 FMJ got up to 630 FPS with a sharper crack but still didn't hurt my unprotected old ears, , but had 27 fps variance . This load penetrated 6" of red wood the other only about 4" but flattened out a bit.
The .38 Spl. Chief I only fired Rem LRN non Plus p 158 grain loads from maybe 10 years ago just to see the difference. These loads were quite a bit louder and had some snap to the recoil, I put on the muffs after the first shot. They averaged 724 FPS with 21 fps variance and penetrated 6" of redwood with flattening.
Either load would put the hurt on you, but the .38 S&W sure is sweet. I am gonna make up some 148 grain hollowbase wadcutters to upset in the bigger bore over a few grains of Bullseye to get the old S&W into the low 600s for fun and a woman's defense weapon. I can't see increasing the weight to 200 grains as the recoil would go up and the sight were right on at 50 feet with the factory 145 grain loads. The .38 special , I know what it is capable of and I carry a 442 a lot with 800 fps loads.
Many probably aren't interested in the good old .38 S&W but there it is.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Buffalo Bore makes a .38 S&W load.

125 gr. Hard Cast Flat Nose:


1030 fps -- S&W Regulation Police 6 inch
977 fps -- S&W Regulation Police 4 inch
926 fps -- S&W Regulation Police 4 inch
874 fps -- S&W 2 inch


https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=143

Makes a good SD load for such a small pistol.

Deaf

 

[golden]

Are you sure?

Gordon,

A lead round nose .38 S&W at a low @600 fps velocity is EVEN WEAKER THAN THE 158 grain ROUND NOSE LEAD .38 Special round which will have a higher velocity in a snub and even higher in a 4 inch barrel.

REMEMBER THIS LOAD, OFTEN CALLED THE WIDOW MAKER BY THE COPS FORCED TO CARRY IT!

If you want to protect a woman, teach her shoot with a better load. If recoil is really an issue, try on of the 110 grain jhp NON + P LOADS or the COR BON Powerball 100 grain bullet in the .38 Special. This is a fast load, even out of a snubby with low recoil due to the light bullet.

Many years ago, GUNWORLD tested the .38 Special 200 grain load and found it was so slow, it would not penetrate the safety glass side windows of a car.
The L.A.P.D. used it and found it was basically one of the weakest loads out there.

If I were going to try to use a .38 S&W as a defensive round, a handload with a light bullet like those used by the .380ACP or 9m.m. MAKAROV (depending on the bore to obtain higher velocity or in a modern (READ SAFE) .38 S&W maybe use a 125 grain soft lead gas check with a hollow point loaded to the same velocity as standard pressure .38 Special rounds like the old FEDERAL Nyclad hp load.


Just my opinion,

Jim

 

[Old Fuff]

Understand that U.S. ammunition factories intentionally download the .38 S&W because of the large number of (literally) cast iron frame top-breaks that were made during the 1890's and early 1900's that are still in circulation and belong to owners who think that if any cartridge will go into the chamber they are safe to shoot, and that all guns (apparently regardless of age or condition) were made to be shot, and it's a crime not to shoot them.

On the other hand case/cartridge length does not necessarily indicate potential power. For example look at a 9mm x 19 Luger round vs. a .38 Special.

Colt revolvers chambered to use .38 S&W cartridges (that they called the .38 Colt New Police or .38 Colt Police Positive to avoid marking their products with any reference to S&W) have much tighter bore and chamber throats then other similar revolvers - in particular the Police Positive hand-ejector model. These can be handloaded using both .38/.358" and 9mm/.356" bullets to equal regular .38 Special performance in complete safety.

As an added bonus, the shorter round is easier to load and eject then the longer one.

 

[PRM]

Over the years I have owned several top break revolvers in .38 S&W. I'm not saying it's the best choice out there, but I don't feel inadequately armed with one either.

The .38 S&W around the turn of the last century was considered an adequate round for self defense by most authorities. But, then John Moses Browning (of Colt 1911 fame) also designed the FN 1910 along with the .32 ACP cartridge, and carried one in that caliber as his favorite pistol.

If your going to carry one of the smaller caliber firearms, shot placement will trump other factors.

 

[4v50 Gary]

The .38 S&W was my grandfather's choice for the gang wars of his days. Thankfully it never broke out into a bulletfest.

 

[Monac]

Understand that U.S. ammunition factories intentionally download the .38 S&W because of the large number of (literally) cast iron frame top-breaks that were made during the 1890's and early 1900's that are still in circulation and belong to owners who think that if any cartridge will go into the chamber they are safe to shoot, and that all guns (apparently regardless of age or condition) were made to be shot, and it's a crime not to shoot them.

I am sorry to quibble with someone who knows a lot more than I do, but I have never seen or heard of a top-break 38 S&W revolver with the barrel or frame made of cast iron. I have heard Spanish gunmakers accused of using that material, but their top-break 38's are pretty scarce. I would be be very interested to hear of a US-made top-break 38 S&W revolver made of cast iron.

On a different subject, I think the deal with the 38 S&W 200 grain "Super Police" load was that it was supposed to be spinning so slowly, and was so over-length for its caliber, that it would tumble on impact, which was supposed to greatly increase its effect. That was the basis on which the British decided to adopt it as the .380 Enfield for their new 38 revolver, back about 1935. I have no idea if this theory has ever been substantiated or not.

Loading it to a higher velocity in 38 Special would work against the very qualities that were supposed to make it useful.

One further aside: early on in my shooting career, I had a fixed-sight Colt Official Police. It was spot on target for me with Remington 200 grain 38 Special loads. I don't know if that says more about the gun, the ammunition, or me.

 

[minutemen1776]

I shot some .38 S&W cartridges just last week in my Ruger GP100. They were given to me by my father, who has never really understood which cartridges are truly interchangeable. In the past, he has bought .32 ACP for a .32 S&W revolver, and he once intended to hunt with .30-06 rounds in a .300 Win Mag chambered rifle. Apparently, he also bought some .38 S&W for a .38 Special snub. Interestingly, the .38 S&W round is very slightly larger in diameter, and you may encounter a little snugness when inserting cases into a .357 Magnum cylinder. I only had a small number of these, and I felt very safe shooting such a low-pressure, lead-bullet load in the massive GP100. The .38 S&W is certainly on the puny side of the ballistics spectrum. Recoil in the big revolver was non-existent, and the report was a mild pop. At least accuracy was pretty good, though.

 

[Old Fuff]

I shot some .38 S&W cartridges just last week in my Ruger GP100. They were given to me by my father, who has never really understood which cartridges are truly interchangeable.

News Flash! They are not supposed to be interchangeable.

Either the cartridges are undersized, or your Ruger's .357 chambers are oversized.

The "short" round you are supposed to use is .38 Short Colt.

you may encounter a little snugness when inserting cases into a .357 Magnum cylinder.

I would sure think so...

 

[natman]

I am sorry to quibble with someone who knows a lot more than I do, but I have never seen or heard of a top-break 38 S&W revolver with the barrel or frame made of cast iron. I have heard Spanish gunmakers accused of using that material, but their top-break 38's are pretty scarce. I would be be very interested to hear of a US-made top-break 38 S&W revolver made of cast iron.

I suspect that you're right about the cast iron detail, but the larger point is that regardless of the metal used, there were plenty of pretty weak revolvers made in 38 S&W in the distant past and because of that legacy 38 S&W loads are correspondingly weak.

 

[Agsalaska]

I shot some .38 S&W cartridges just last week in my Ruger GP100. They were given to me by my father, who has never really understood which cartridges are truly interchangeable. In the past, he has bought .32 ACP for a .32 S&W revolver, and he once intended to hunt with .30-06 rounds in a .300 Win Mag chambered rifle. Apparently, he also bought some .38 S&W for a .38 Special snub. Interestingly, the .38 S&W round is very slightly larger in diameter, and you may encounter a little snugness when inserting cases into a .357 Magnum cylinder. I only had a small number of these, and I felt very safe shooting such a low-pressure, lead-bullet load in the massive GP100. The .38 S&W is certainly on the puny side of the ballistics spectrum. Recoil in the big revolver was non-existent, and the report was a mild pop. At least accuracy was pretty good, though.

They are NOT interchangeable.

 

[Twiki357]

They are NOT interchangeable.

Factory ammunition = correct.
But if they were reloads, some dingbat could have resized them with a 38 special die. The size difference is only .005.

 

[kanook]

Remington's current manufactured 38 S&W ammo is undersized and will fit in 38 special and 357mag revolvers. I sent an email to Remington about this and they never replied.

 

[minutemen1776]

I am quite aware that the .38 S&W is not supposed to be interchangeable in .38 Special/.357 Magnum revolvers. I thought that was made clear in my post, noting that the diameters are slightly different. However, the difference is tiny, and they WILL chamber in many .357 revolvers. I was merely shooting up a few I had on hand. I see no reason to seek out more of these for my revolver.

 

[Gordon]

Back in the day there were lots of US revolvers that were made for Britain in .38 S&W reimported and the cylinders were reamed for .38 spl. You would get a weird slight bulge in the back of the case of .38 spl ammo and if you fired .38 S&W ammo in them lots of split necks. Just for info purposes.

 

[Salmoneye]

Remington's current manufactured 38 S&W ammo is undersized and will fit in 38 special and 357mag revolvers. I sent an email to Remington about this and they never replied.

Yup...

Pulled a bullet just cuz, and mic'ed at .358" with an almost heeled or skirted dead soft bullet that will slug up when fired...

I have mentioned it here (and elsewhere) before, that I have seen .38 S&W bores from .354" to .360" groove diameter...

I personally am one of the "dingbats" that uses .38SPCL dies and loads .358" lead for my Albion Motors made Enfield with a groove diameter of .357"...

I have a Smith & Wesson 686-3 that will chamber and fire factory loaded .38 S&W, but none of my Ruger .357's will chamber past the bullet...

A good thread from The Firing Line:

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=560006

 

[PRM]

Remington's current manufactured 38 S&W ammo is undersized and will fit in 38 special and 357mag revolvers. I sent an email to Remington about this and they never replied. kanook

The Remington 38 S&W LRN are what I shoot in my S&W Perfected Model and they do drop right in any of my S&W .38 Special revolvers with no problem. I don't shoot the S&Ws in my .38 Special revolvers mainly because of cost. Really no need too, when the proper round for the gun is about half the cost. It is good to know the Remington cartridges would work in an emergency.

 

[Jim K]

The case diameter specs overlap, so it is common to find some .38 S&W that will fit into a .38 Special/.357 Magnum chamber. And most of the bullets for .38 S&W run .357-.358, as do WWII British bullets for the .380 Mk II.

But it can be tricky. I tried some Remington .38 S&W in one .357 revolver and 3 chambers would take them, 3 would not! All would accept .38 Special or .357.

Jim