.38 Special 148 grain wadcutter loads using Bullseye

[orpington]

I have Hunter’s Supply 148 grain 38 cal wadcutter bullets. It seems that threads on the internet suggest loading with 2.5 to 2.7 grains Bullseye. So, I check to see if a similar load exists in Lyman 49th edition. The closest bullet is a 150 grain #358091 bullet, but the suggested starting grains are considerably higher at 3.1, velocity of 837 fps, pressure 13,100 C.U.P.; MAXIMUM load 3.5 grains Bullseye, 942 fps, 16,000 C.U.P. I’m concerned because the starting grains as published in Lyman 49 are over 20% greater for a similar bullet than what folks are using on the internet.

Also, the overall length of the .38 Special case is 1.155”, and Lyman 49 (this being on page 354) states for the #358091 bullet load to have an OAL of 1.317”. The difference between 1.155” and 1.317” is 0.162”, meaning the wadcutter should stick out 0.162”. Which is a complete WAGas to where this came from as suggestions are over the place as to how deep to seat the wadcutter, anywhere from flush to as far out as is practical considering the revolver and will it function.

I’m loading for a 1919 production M & P Model of 1905 4th Change revolver.
A photograph of the bullet I’m using is provided.

 

[1KPerDay]

Your bullet has a crimp groove. Try using it and try some seated flush and see what your gun likes. The 2.7 WC loads are typically for soft swaged lead HBWC and they are usually seated flush. Yours appears to be a DEWC and sometimes the charges are higher for those. I’d personally be fine with starting yours at 2.7 grains and going up from there.

 

[orpington]

Your bullet has a crimp groove. Try using it and try some seated flush and see what your gun likes. The 2.7 WC loads are typically for soft swaged lead HBWC and they are usually seated flush. Yours appears to be a DEWC and sometimes the charges are higher for those. I’d personally be fine with starting yours at 2.7 grains and going up from there.

Why is Lyman 49th Edition so much higher? This is rather alarming, as it doesn’t take too much of Bullseye to blow up and ruin a revolver.

 

[bluetopper]

The Lyman data is for a button nose double end wadcutter made of a harder alloy, not a hollow base wadcutter made of a very soft lead alloy, that's the difference. Seat your bullet to the crimp groove, that's what it's for. You can load your Hunters supply bullets anywhere from 2.7 to 3.2 and be very safe. You've got a great old revolver....enjoy it.

 

[Slamfire]

I have Hunter’s Supply 148 grain 38 cal wadcutter bullets. It seems that threads on the internet suggest loading with 2.5 to 2.7 grains Bullseye. So, I check to see if a similar load exists in Lyman 49th edition. The closest bullet is a 150 grain #358091 bullet, but the suggested starting grains are considerably higher at 3.1, velocity of 837 fps, pressure 13,100 C.U.P.; MAXIMUM load 3.5 grains Bullseye, 942 fps, 16,000 C.U.P. I’m concerned because the starting grains as published in Lyman 49 are over 20% greater for a similar bullet than what folks are using on the internet.

I’m loading for a 1919 production M & P Model of 1905 4th Change revolver.
A photograph of the bullet I’m using is provided.

View attachment 1207982

Fill all of the grooves with lube. Seat the bullet and crimp the case on the upper crimp groove. The velocity you want is to keep the bullet from tumbling at 50 yards is just at 700 fps. That is easy to make with 2.7 grains Bullseye, but depending on the lot, you might have to bump it up, or bump it down.


Colt Cobra 2" barrel

148 gr LWC 2.7 grs Bullseye thrown, Fed 100 primers mixed cases
30-Jan-05 T = 42 °F

Average 606 fps
SD= 18.19
ES = 56.64
High =633.1
Low =576.5
32 recorded shots

Accurate shoots 6" high at 25 yards

S&W M638-3 Airweight Bodyguard

148 LWC Valiant 2.7 grs Bullseye thrown Mixed Brass WSP
18-Mar-07 T = 52 °F

Ave Vel = 611.6
Std Dev = 22.04
ES = 75.92
High = 648.1
Low = 572.2
N = 25

little high

Colt Police Positive Special 4" Barrel mfgr 1930

Zero 148gr LWC Factory
4 Sept 2005 T = 72 °F

Ave Vel =810
Std Dev =72
ES =213
High =943
Low =730
N =6

4" S&W M10-5

148 LWC 2.7grs Bullseye W/W cases WSP
19-Apr-09 T ≈ 60-65 ° F

Ave Vel =696.2
Std Dev =12.04
ES =48
High =721.3
Low =673.3
N =32
v accurate, about 2" low, no leading, mild recoil

4" M66-2

148gr LBBWC 2.7 grs Bullseye CCI 500 primers
17-Oct-93 T = 65-70°F

Ave Vel =704fps
Std Dev =18
ES =57
High =742
Low =685
N =6

Colt Python Stainless Steel, 6" Barrel

148 gr LBBWC 2.7 grs Bullseye 38 SPL cases CCI500
24 Sept 1999 T = 78 ° F

Ave Vel =710
Std Dev =18
ES =72.02
High =746.1
Low =674
N =32

shot fine at 25 yards, no leading, light recoil

 

[orpington]

The Lyman data is for a button nose double end wadcutter made of a harder alloy, not a hollow base wadcutter made of a very soft lead alloy, that's the difference. Seat your bullet to the crimp groove, that's what it's for. You can load your Hunters supply bullets anywhere from 2.7 to 3.2 and be very safe. You've got a great old revolver....enjoy it.

The wadcutter is symmetrical at both ends and does not have a hollow base. FWIW.

Here’s photographs of the revolver, since you paid it a compliment.

Trivia question: How might you suspect this was a 1919 shipped revolver if I didn’t tell you this, it not being refinished? Answer to be provided tomorrow.

 

[horsemen61]

Ttrl

 

[BJung]

Some reloaders seat their 38-148gr WC bullets flush to the mouth. I've seated my 38-148 WC to the crimp groove and the first grease groove. Both grouped the same except my BE load was 2.8gr and the bullet seated out used 3.1gr BE. Your ideal load will vary. These loads use FMJ core lead which is soft. My accuracy load using Dardas 38-148 bullets is different. I used once fired brass and reloads that grouped best for me used Remington brass. I think it's because the Reminton brass is thinner and there's less neck tension. The next test I'll do for my 38 WC loads will be seating depth. To me, seating WC bullets to the crimp groove with brass with different lengths is not conducive to a good groups. I've shot 38-150 SWC bullets too. My best group so far uses 3.6gr BE with an OAL = 1.478". I think I can tighten this group up by adjusting the seating depth.

 

[Slamfire]

Phillip Hemphill, two time Bullseye National Champ, and ten time PPC National Champ, told me he primarily shot the 148 gr bullets with 2.7 ish grs Bullseye, unless he was required to shoot major, or some other rule. Phil claimed he had 600,000 rounds through a Shilen barreled K frame and it still shot 2 inch groups at 50 yards with the wadcutter load.

Phil said he had to replace extractor stars, cylinder hands, and he had a firing pin break. Springs had to be changed too. But overall, his K frame pistols kept on ticking with these target loads.

The load is very accurate and the fact it does not beat the shooter up, helps reduce flinches.

 

[fxvr5]

.

 

[fxvr5]

Fill all of the grooves with lube.

It might already be lubed with their slick coat lube. Is that right OP?

 

[fxvr5]

Why is Lyman 49th Edition so much higher? This is rather alarming, as it doesn’t take too much of Bullseye to blow up and ruin a revolver.

It's not alarming. Their load data is correct for their bullet.

 

[orpington]

It might already be lubed with their slick coat lube. Is that right OP?

I believe so.

 

[StrawHat]

I competed in PPC. Started with swaged bullets, bought a half pallet at a time. 2.8 grains of Bullseye was the ticket in my revolvers. Eventually tried cast wadcutters. Bought several different molds. Eventually settled on the Lee wadcutter and found 2.8 was still the right number.

At some point, I started experimenting to replicate the old full power wadcutter load. I have my notes somewhere but with the cast 150 grain wadcutter I was getting right around 900 fps and still holding 10 ring accuracy. That was the load I carried in my edc, when I carried a small bore.

Kevin

 

[orpington]

I loaded this morning 20 rounds, seared the bullet to the upper crimp groove, 2.7 grains Bullseye.

Which is exactly where the bullet seating die was set to, and so I must have loaded this before but have no recollection whatsoever of doing so.

 

[Anchorite]

Phillip Hemphill, two time Bullseye National Champ, and ten time PPC National Champ, told me he primarily shot the 148 gr bullets with 2.7 ish grs Bullseye, unless he was required to shoot major, or some other rule. Phil claimed he had 600,000 rounds through a Shilen barreled K frame and it still shot 2 inch groups at 50 yards with the wadcutter load.

Phil said he had to replace extractor stars, cylinder hands, and he had a firing pin break. Springs had to be changed too. But overall, his K frame pistols kept on ticking with these target loads.

The load is very accurate and the fact it does not beat the shooter up, helps reduce flinches.

That’s an excellent load. I’ve run some as high as 3.8, but keeping it at <3 grains is very pleasant and super-accurate.

 

[orpington]

That’s an excellent load. I’ve run some as high as 3.8, but keeping it at <3 grains is very pleasant and super-accurate.

I followed that such advice and loaded using 2.7 grains Bullseye this morning.

Question: How can a 148 grain wadcutter have a starting load of 2.5 grains and a similar appearing one at 150 grains, only 2 grains more, have a published range of 3.1 to 3.5 grains of Bullseye?

 

[fxvr5]

Question: How can a 148 grain wadcutter have a starting load of 2.5 grains and a similar appearing one at 150 grains, only 2 grains more, have a published range of 3.1 to 3.5 grains of Bullseye?

Different manuals, different data.

The hollow base wadcutters should not be pushed as fast because if the pressure/speed is too high, the skirt can become detached and stick in the barrel.

In some manuals, the start load for 38 wadcutters, and other 38 Special bullets, is 2.0 gr. Bullseye.

 

[orpington]

Different manuals, different data.

The hollow base wadcutters should not be pushed as fast because if the pressure/speed is too high, the skirt can become detached and stick in the barrel.

In some manuals, the start load for 38 wadcutters, and other 38 Special bullets, is 2.0 gr. Bullseye.

What is the definition of a hollow base wadcutter? I’m not seeing a hollow base on my bullets nor in the 358091 bullet. Mine are completely symmetrical. The #358091 mold is not symmetrical with regards to bullet cast, but no hollow base noted.

You have to be careful with regards to some of the really low starting loads. I believe I was using a starting load published in a Hornady manual once and they were such that the bullet would either drop out the end of a 4” barrel or travel such that it partially stuck out the end of the barrel. Jacketed bullets, .44 Special, my load was correct and it was not a loading error.

 

[fxvr5]

What is the definition of a hollow base wadcutter? I’m not seeing a hollow base on my bullets nor in the 358091 bullet. Mine are completely symmetrical. The #358091 mold is not symmetrical with regards to bullet cast, but no hollow base noted.

Hollow-base bullet - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[orpington]

Hollow-base bullet - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Exactly! What’s hollow base about any wadcutters addressed in this thread? I think of hollow base with regards of o my .41 Long Colt bullets.

 

[BJung]

Phillip Hemphill, two time Bullseye National Champ, and ten time PPC National Champ, told me he primarily shot the 148 gr bullets with 2.7 ish grs Bullseye, unless he was required to shoot major, or some other rule. Phil claimed he had 600,000 rounds through a Shilen barreled K frame and it still shot 2 inch groups at 50 yards with the wadcutter load.

Phil said he had to replace extractor stars, cylinder hands, and he had a firing pin break. Springs had to be changed too. But overall, his K frame pistols kept on ticking with these target loads.

The load is very accurate and the fact it does not beat the shooter up, helps reduce flinches.

I think it's very interesting that the 38-148 wc accuracy load is mostly 2.7 and 2.8gr BE despite the many handguns it is shot through.

 

[fxvr5]

Exactly! What’s hollow base about any wadcutters addressed in this thread? I think of hollow base with regards of o my .41 Long Colt bullets.

Most factory loaded wadcutter loads use a hollow base, and are usually what is thought of when referring to wadcutters. They are usually swaged, though there ae some cast HBWCs. The double end design is common in cast bullets.

 

[orpington]

The wadcutter is symmetrical at both ends and does not have a hollow base. FWIW.

Here’s photographs of the revolver, since you paid it a compliment.

Trivia question: How might you suspect this was a 1919 shipped revolver if I didn’t tell you this, it not being refinished? Answer to be provided tomorrow.

View attachment 1207985View attachment 1207986View attachment 1207987View attachment 1207988

I had no responses as to WHY we might suspect this August 1919 revolver shipped in 1919 without any additional information, such as a factory letter. And, assuming that no parts have been replaced and it is not buffed and refinished, obscuring original detail.

The stocks with recessed gold plated medallions date from 1910 to 1920. So we can place manufacture within that decade. However, in 1919, some (most? All?) Smith & Wesson firearms did not have the S & W logo on the frame or sideplate. As this revolver does not.

 

[BJung]

Most factory loaded wadcutter loads use a hollow base, and are usually what is thought of when referring to wadcutters. They are usually swaged, though there ae some cast HBWCs. The double end design is common in cast bullets.

For future reference, hollow based molds are sold. Midway sells swaged hollow based wadcutters. I've read on a forum that there are heavier wadcutters but I haven't looked for them yet.