.38 Special 148gr Wadcutters: Taper Crimps OK for Both HBWC and DEWC Seated Flush?

[roo_ster]

Howdy:

QUESTION
Are taper crimps OK for HBWC and DEWC seated flush in .38 Special or .357mag? Mostly to iron out the flare on the case mouth.

BACKGROUND
Given uncertain wadcutter availability, my plan is to try to be sort of wadcutter-agnostic, in that I want to have the same load setup for HBWC & DEWC with the same powder charge, seating depth, and crimp on the shiny new Lee Pro 4000 kit I bought. And a taper crimp seems like it might be the ticket, given the leading edges of the two wadcutters are a bit different. The HBWC has the sharp(er) edge and the DEWC has a bit of a rounded edge. It seems a roll crimp set up perfect for one might bugger up the other.

Loaded my first HBWC a few months back, 148gr HBWC+3.2gr W231, light roll crimp with about 1/10" of the HBWC past case mouth. I usually preferred 158gr LSWC & Trail Boss for light loads in .38spl and .357mag, but you load what you can get components for. Brought them to a family shooting get-together over Thanksgiving. They were accurate and even softer-shooting. Everybody aged 14-80, boy & girls, ate them up like popcorn, more popular than any other reloads I have ever produced. It helped that they were stable out past 50 yards, where some of us got into a friendly competition to hit some head-sized rocks. Good times.

Anyways, I could not find more HBWC, but I did manage to find some DEWC cast locally. The DEWC are typical, with crimp grooves on both ends and a single lubed grove in the center. Harder lead than the Hornady HBWC I had been using. Probably the same alloy he uses for all his other pistol bullets. Good to a smidge over 1000fps with no leading in my experience, sized .358 like all his other .38/.357 pills.

Thank you all for your time.

 

[rfwobbly]

I guess you could, but I'm not sure why you'd do that....

• Typical dies for 38Spcl and 357M apply a roll crimp. Therefore, you'd need to buy a separate 38 taper crimp die at extra cost.
• They make TC dies for use with plated bullets in 38Spcl or 357M, because plated do not typically have a crimp cannelure.
• If your bullets have the crimp cannelure, then I'd suggest a light roll crimp, OR maybe no crimp at all. All 148gr LWC seat so deeply and target loads are so light that there is very little chance of the bullet shifting.

Hope this helps.

 

[roo_ster]

Probably ought to have included that I already own:
1. RCBS 3-die set for .38/.357
2. Lee factory crimp die for .38/.357
3. Lee taper crimp die for .38/.357

I have played around with them all. All seem to work as advertised. Lee factory crimp gives a terrific roll crimp on a cast LSWC and the taper crimp worked fine on some swaged LSWC without a crimp groove. I can not seem to get the RCBS seater/crimp die to both seat flush and give a light roll crimp in the same step with wadcutters seated flush. Probably the seater stem is in the way. I wanted to seat & crimp in one step because I was using a single stage press.

 

[Walkalong]

QUESTION
Are taper crimps OK for HBWC and DEWC seated flush in .38 Special or .357mag? Mostly to iron out the flare on the case mouth.

Absolutely acceptable.

 

[roo_ster]

Absolutely acceptable.
View attachment 966819

Wow, that not only looks functional, it looks pretty. Hang it in an art gallery and title it, "Cartridge of Artist, Number 358."

 

[cfullgraf]

I'm another that uses taper crimps with wadcutter ammunition. I use it with both cast and plated.

My 38 Special wadcutters are accurate enough but I do not compete.

If I remember correctly, my 38 Special taper crimp die is an RCBS 38 Special taper crimp seater die with the innards removed. I like to crimp in a separate step from bullet seating.

I have not looked recently, but there may be others available these days, both seater dies and crimp dies.

 

[.38 Special]

I am slowly coming to the opinion that case tension might be at least as important as crimp. I certainly have found that in heavy loads for things like the .44 Magnum and .45 Colt, turning down the expander ball so that the completed cartridge has a slight "wasp waist" appearance results in more consistent velocities and accuracy. I suspect the same should be true with any revolver cartridge, though with very soft bullets, "sizing" the bullet during seating may be a concern.

The short version is that I believe a taper crimp should be fine for the author's needs, especially if the expander ball is not undoing too much of the sizer's good work.

 

[Walkalong]

case tension might be at least as important as crimp.

It absolutely is.

 

[.38 Special]

It absolutely is.

I expect you are right. How have you come to your belief?

 

[Walkalong]

It works on target.

Of course, so does not crimping lightly to remove any belling, but they sure chamber smoothly when the case mouth is all the way against the bullet.

18 shots each, light taper crimp in .38 Spl, X-Treme 148 Gr DEWC & Berrys 148 Gr HBWC, chrono at 5 yards, target at 7 yards. Loads # 107 & 108.

 

[rfwobbly]

Probably ought to have included that I already own:
Lee factory crimp gives a terrific roll crimp on a cast LSWC and the taper crimp worked fine on some swaged LSWC without a crimp groove. I can not seem to get the RCBS seater/crimp die to both seat flush and give a light roll crimp in the same step with wadcutters seated flush. Probably the seater stem is in the way. I wanted to seat & crimp in one step because I was using a single stage press.

To seat a 38 LWC "flush" I found that the bullet actually needed to go maybe 0.006" below flush during seating, so that the case mouth could then be rolled over. Once the case was roll crimped, only then was the cartridge "flush seated". So it turned out the decisive part in all this was that the seating stem had to enter the case mouth. This meant the seating stem had to be smaller than the case mouth, to allow said "entry".

What I had to do (as shown in the photo) was cutaway the corner of my seating stem to allow this "entry" to happen. You might check that.

Hope this helps.

 

[roo_ster]

View attachment 967144

To seat a 38 LWC "flush" I found that the bullet actually needed to go maybe 0.006" below flush during seating, so that the case mouth could then be rolled over. Once the case was roll crimped, only then was the cartridge "flush seated". So it turned out the decisive part in all this was that the seating stem had to enter the case mouth. This meant the seating stem had to be smaller than the case mouth, to allow said "entry".

What I had to do (as shown in the photo) was cutaway the corner of my seating stem to allow this "entry" to happen. You might check that.

Hope this helps.

Yep, maybe have a machinist turn a RCBS .38/.357 seating stem like that on his lathe to roll crimp "flush" with case mouth.

 

[Walkalong]

Or just seat them flush with a light taper crimp.

 

[roo_ster]

Or just seat them flush with a light taper crimp.

That does sound like less trouble.

 

[PapaG]

I think there is a lot of wisdom being shared here. I'm old school enough to still use roll crimp on revolver (and tubular magazine rifle) cartridges and taper on stuff for semiautos. i don't crimp on bolt action rounds using jacketed bullets (except for semiauto like 223 for an AR and then I use Lee FCD). Whatever works is what's best. For HBWC I've always seated slightly below case mouth and used a moderate roll crimp. For my 358432 WC I seat so I can crimp in the crimp groove.