Book Loads for .38 Special +P 148gr DEWC

[roo_ster]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
[One load, at the very bottom of the post (4.5gr W231, 148gr DEWC vs .38spl std pressure). Although, that IS the question: Is this or any other +P load in a book? But I am a cautious fellow and don;t want anyone led astray given a mis-reading of my question & background data. So be careful. ]

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Howdy:

I am looking for book loads for .38 Special +P cast 148gr DEWC. Have any of you all seen any with W231, HS-6, or 2400?

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BACKGROUND (If you want it)
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I have done as much of my homework as I can think of, but would like to see a load from a book. I can find plenty of standard pressure loads for soft 148gr HBWC, but nothing in the +P territory for DEWC in the books I have.

I want something sporty for my SW638 .38spl +P snubby for woods carry. Sometimes I don't want to pack a magnum revolver.

Projectile is a bog-standard cast 148gr DEWC with crimp grooves either end, lube band in the middle. My fingernail and a finish nail indicate this is the same alloy as their 158gr LSWC, which don't lead in my .357mag loads around 1000fps and lead only a smidge in hot near-max .357mag loads with 2400. Relatively hard I would say, a lot harder than the Hornady HBWC.

Will load flush with the case mouth with taper crimp to iron out the case mouth flare.

Powders On Hand:

*Winchester 231 / Hodgdon HP-38
*Hodgdon HS-6
*Alliant 2400​

Not sure 2400 will be any help.

Books/Resources on Hand

*Lyman 50th Edition
*Richard Lee Modern Reloading 1st Edition
*Online Hodgdon​

And a few others that have loads only for their swaged HBWC moving at sedate velocities.

The above resources are all .38 Special standard pressure. Here is a digest of the 148gr WC (HB/DE/BB/etc) loads from those "books":.

.38 Special Std Pressure 148gr WC
Lee HP38/W231 3.8gr
Lee HS-6 6.0gr
Lyman W231 3.7-4.2gr DEWC 16200psi
Hodg W231 3.5-4.0gr
HS-6 4.5-5.2gr​

Lyman is sportiest with their 4.2gr top end with W231. And Lee's 6.0gr with HS-6 is 0.8gr more than Hodgdon.

And just to bracket things, here are 148gr WC loads from the same resources for .357mag.

.357mag 148gr wadcutter
Lee 2400 11.0-12.2gr 33800psi
Lee HP38 4.3-4.3gr 18800psi
Lee W231 3.4-3.4gr 16500psi
Hodg W231 3.0-3.4gr 14300cup/17600cup ​

The Lee load with 2400 is an obvious outlier.

I plan to work up from canonical .38 Special target WC loads up through +P. On the low end, the canonical (Taffin/Petty) HBWC load is in the neighborhood of 3.0gr W231. I sure like that with HBWC. Not sure if that is enough pressure for these cast DEWC. Online consensus (for what that's worth) seems to hover around 3.5gr W231 for DEWC mild/target load. In the end, I would like a good target and a good woods load. It would be nice if the target load was the same as my HBWC load: 3.0gr W231. I also want good, worked up loads with more than one powder, so when shortages hit, I already good substitute standard loads for me 7 mine.

Without any .38 Special +P book data for 148gr DEWC, I will likely load up the following for testing:

W231 3.0-4.5gr (3.0, 3.5, 4.0, 4.2, 4.5)
HS-6 4.5-6.0 (4.5, 5.0, 5.2, 5.6, 6.0)​

The only load in the above course of development that is officially above standard .38 Special standard pressure is the 4.5gr of W231. OTOH, I am approaching the 6.0gr of HS-6 with caution even though it is a legit book load, so those get the hairy eyeball, too.

 

[brewer12345]

Try the Lyman Cast Bullet handbook.

 

[AJC1]

Tons in the western powder downloadable manual

 

[Phantom 309]

Lyman's cast bullet handbook mirrors the data from the 50th at 3.5-4.2g of win 231/hp-38. I also checked Hornady's 10th but it only showed a sedate load of 2.2-3.5g of 231/hp-38, and that's not what you're after so scratch that from the list.

I know you've stated that you will approach the higher hs-6 loads from Lee with caution. I just want to affirm that in Lee's 2nd edition your available powders aren't shown in the +p data and in the standard .38sp data the max for hs-6 is 5.2g. So it appears that your planned 5.6 and 6.0 loads are in fact into +p territory.

Sorry I can't be more help, I checked all of my load books and I'm still working on growing the library.

 

[brewer12345]

Some of the Lyman cast loads are fairly spicy. If I wanted to traipse above those levels in 38 cases, I would experiment in a stout 357 revolver.

 

[roo_ster]

Lyman's cast bullet handbook mirrors the data from the 50th at 3.5-4.2g of win 231/hp-38. I also checked Hornady's 10th but it only showed a sedate load of 2.2-3.5g of 231/hp-38, and that's not what you're after so scratch that from the list.

I know you've stated that you will approach the higher hs-6 loads from Lee with caution. I just want to affirm that in Lee's 2nd edition your available powders aren't shown in the +p data and in the standard .38sp data the max for hs-6 is 5.2g. So it appears that your planned 5.6 and 6.0 loads are in fact into +p territory.

Sorry I can't be more help, I checked all of my load books and I'm still working on growing the library.

Thanks for the HS-6 heads-up. I am interested where Lee go the 6.0 min and 6.0max load.

Some of the Lyman cast loads are fairly spicy. If I wanted to traipse above those levels in 38 cases, I would experiment in a stout 357 revolver.

Good point. Although their published pressures are well below max for W231 & 150gr WC. I have a SW686 and SW10 in addition to the SW638 to test loads in.

And maybe I don't NEED a +P load? Buffalo Bore 150gr .38spl hard cast wadcutter is not +P, in the neighborhood of 850fps, and penetrates like crazy in tests. I have shot more than a few of those and BB's +P 158gr LSWCHP-GC, too. All stout loads.

 

[brewer12345]

And maybe I don't NEED a +P load? Buffalo Bore 150gr .38spl hard cast wadcutter is not +P, in the neighborhood of 850fps, and penetrates like crazy in tests. I have shot more than a few of those and BB's +P 158gr LSWCHP-GC, too. All stout loads.

Any lead solid driven at any sort of reasonable speed penetrate like crazy. I chronoed my 54 round ball load (about 230 grains) out of a muzzleloader this summer at about 1250 FPS. Even though this ball has about the lowest ballistic coefficient possible and was moving fairly slowly, when it hit a button buck in the butt at 60 yards the ball broke a thigh bone and went almost 3 feet through the deer before coming to a rest in the front shoulder. If you can crank up your wadcutter to 900+ FPS, your bullet is likely to go right through an assailant at the usual distances for this sort of thing.

 

[roo_ster]

Still looking and came across this from H&N:
https://www.hn-sport.de/en/reloading/wc-h-hb-357-148-gr-hs

.38 SPECIAL W.C.
Hodgdon 4.2 gr HP 38
30,4 mm
Winchester
Federal 100

They claim 320m/s or ~1050fps.

They said nothing about +P. This is an indication that the Lyman 148grWC/4.2gr W231/HP-38 is not a fluke.

I would suggest reducing 10% and working up, of course. So, start with 3.8gr if you want a spicier DEWC.

I am thinking that this is likely the limit I would want to shoot out of a revolver chambered for .38Special, +P or otherwise.

They supposedly have a reloading manual in English, but it is sold out at Amazon. Here is one in German that is from 2010:
https://www.lhs-germany.de/fileadmi...hossprogramm/Ladedaten/H_N_Ladedaten_2010.pdf

 

[wcwhitey]

Lymans 48th has a 231 Load that will give 942 fps, its based of of the Lyman 358091 DEWC, so it can be done, I would call a 150 grain bullet at 942 fps +P anyday. That is gonna penetrate for miles and make nice pretty holes if it doesn't tumble. HBWC were once revered for the tumble effect before decent HP's existed. I see where your going, I think that 231 load looks most promising. The books are conservative and at that velocity that is about as much as I would want to push a .38 in a J frame.

 

[call1911]

Still looking and came across this from H&N:
https://www.hn-sport.de/en/reloading/wc-h-hb-357-148-gr-hs

.38 SPECIAL W.C.
Hodgdon 4.2 gr HP 38
30,4 mm
Winchester
Federal 100

They claim 320m/s or ~1050fps.

They said nothing about +P. This is an indication that the Lyman 148grWC/4.2gr W231/HP-38 is not a fluke.

I would suggest reducing 10% and working up, of course. So, start with 3.8gr if you want a spicier DEWC.

I am thinking that this is likely the limit I would want to shoot out of a revolver chambered for .38Special, +P or otherwise.

They supposedly have a reloading manual in English, but it is sold out at Amazon. Here is one in German that is from 2010:
https://www.lhs-germany.de/fileadmi...hossprogramm/Ladedaten/H_N_Ladedaten_2010.pdf

This H&N bullet is HBWC and no DEWC.
For my part that's nothing I would try.

 

[forrest r]

Here's a link to a bunch of older reloading manuals.
http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manuals/Reloading/Reloading Manuals/

It's not that difficult to load any wc, hbwc or dwwc to 38spl p+ levels. You're dealing with 3 things:
bullet weight
seating depth
load data for a known load

Seating depth ='s case volume that's usable/left over for the powder. Less volume ='s higher pressure.


This is what happens with the difference in case volumes per seating depth changes along with incrases in powder.


The easiest way to load a wc. hbwc or dewc to p+ levels it to seat it long/make the oal longer.


Those wc's pictured above are the H&G #50 148gr button nosed wc. I used data for the lyman 358477 150gr swc bullet. Those wc's have the same amount of bullet in the case as the 358477 swc. Same case volume for powder this way with both bullets. When doing this:
Both bullets shot to the same poa with the same load
Both bullets were within 25fps of each other with the same load.

A 44cal ca bulldog with 220gr hbwc's turned backwards and seated to the same depth as the lyman 429215 215gr gc swc bullet. Same load can be used for both bullets.


Loading wc's, hbwc's & dewc's this way is nothing new. They make 3 types of wc's/hbwc's.
Type I dewc/hbwc
Type II button nosed wc
Type III Tapered nosed wc

A picture of all 3 types of wc's in 44cal


Top left ='s type II button nosed wc
Top center ='s type I bullet that's a special order/design. It can be loaded flush or it has 2 different length crimp grooves on each end of the bullet. The difference in length is so that you can use the same load in a 44spl case (shallow seat/long nose). Or use a 44mag case and turn the bullet over and seat the bullet crimping a shorter oal.(deep seat/shallow nose). The other thing those different crimp grooves are good for is finding a bullet with the same bullet body seating depth and use that data.
Top right ='s type III wc that is seated like a traditional swc and uses swc load data
bottom left ='s type I 220gr hbwc
bottom right ='s type III wc that is seated like a swc and uses swc load data

Simpe enough Load the dewc's long mirroring swc load data and use that data for the swc bullet.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
[One load, at the very bottom of the post (4.5gr W231, 148gr DEWC vs .38spl std pressure). Although, that IS the question: Is this or any other +P load in a book? But I am a cautious fellow and don;t want anyone led astray given a mis-reading of my question & background data. So be careful. ]

==================================================

Howdy:

I am looking for book loads for .38 Special +P cast 148gr DEWC. Have any of you all seen any with W231, HS-6, or 2400?

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A few things to consider, first: A) Are you planning to use +P cases or SP cases? I've found in the past it does make a difference as far as case life and ejecting smoothly are concerned. B) Slower powders don 't work well in snubby's. You need a fast powder otherwise you're just pushing powder out the barrel to make a fireball. C) All of my heavy loads have been in Colts Official Police revolvers with long barrels so i'm not sure if my experience helps with a snub-nose but, I find Unique gives me the best performance from a short barrel. D) The loads I found are not listed as +P because there were no such thing when they were published but the top-end loads are for sure high pressure loads.

From the Lyman's 44th Edition, for a 6" S&W Model 14:


Unique gives the fastest measured velocity at 1295fps. And remember, when this was published (1967) they were still placing the chrono 20 feet down-muzzle to prevent muzzle blast from skewing the results. I'm thinking the #358495 cast bullet is pretty close to your DEWC's, profile wise, and 6+gr. of Unique in a .38Spl case under a 140-150gr. lead bullet has been done for a long time in strong revolvers with no danger decrees so, you ought to be good to use this data for starting-to-max loads. I hope.


Good luck and be safe.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Lymans 48th has a 231 Load that will give 942 fps, its based of of the Lyman 358091 DEWC, so it can be done, I would call a 150 grain bullet at 942 fps +P anyday. That is gonna penetrate for miles and make nice pretty holes if it doesn't tumble. HBWC were once revered for the tumble effect before decent HP's existed. I see where your going, I think that 231 load looks most promising. The books are conservative and at that velocity that is about as much as I would want to push a .38 in a J frame.

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Well, that's probably closer to what rooster wants than the older Lyman data tested in a 6" S&W Model 14.
...from the 48th Edition -
Test Specifications: (Velocity & Pressure)
Firearm Used: Universal Receiver
Barrel Length: 4"
Twist: 1-18-3/4"
Groove Dia: 357"

It's not revolver testing, though. No gap. More like a rifle chamber.

 

[Riomouse911]

You may find a 4.5 gr Unique under the 148 gr DEWC is a good combo of power, accuracy and enjoyability to shoot out of your 638.

Anything more powder-wise in my 642 doesn’t add any real speed but does add blast and recoil (hampering my accuracy).

Stay safe.

 

[forrest r]

I would be extremely careful with that lyman 44th data!!!

On another website a guy just got done testing the "skeeter" load for the 357's. Skeeter used 2400 in 38spl cases and seated a lyman 358156 swc gas checked bullet. 357 cases were hard to come by and 38spl cases were laying everywhere/free. So skeeter hot rodded 38spl cases/loads. The lyman 358156 bullet has a top and bottom crimp groove. Crimp in the top in 357 cases. Crimp in the bottom in 38spl cases

Anyway the guy doing the testing has his own pressure testing equipment and has a transducer setup on a 8" contender bbl. The end result of the testing using the lyman 358156 bullet seated long in 38spl cases using 12gr of 2400 was.
28,800psi

Using the same test loads (ladder test) and a 6" bbl'd ruger security six over the same chronograph that tester got.
1251fps with 12.5gr of 2400 in a 38spl case with that lyman 358156 bullet seated long.

By 1980, lyman's 3rd edition cast bullet handbook didn't list any p+ loads for their wc & dewc bullets, only 357mag loads. By 2010 lyman didn't even list 357mag loads for their wc & dewc bullets in the 4th edition of cast bullets.

 

[roo_ster]

Gentlemen, you all have dropped a heaping helping of useful data, both book/published and practical hands on. I have downloaded the linked manuals and have read your posts. It will take a bit to digest it all. In the meantime you have my thanks.

 

[horsey300]

Gentlemen, you all have dropped a heaping helping of useful data, both book/published and practical hands on. I have downloaded the linked manuals and have read your posts. It will take a bit to digest it all. In the meantime you have my thanks.

Alliant has +p data for a 146 hp swc* with blue dot, power pistol, and 2400....

 

[forrest r]

A link to more reloading manuals, these were put out by the powder mfg companies.
http://castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/

If you click on the link & then the alliant link you get multiple years of their reloading booklets to choose from. I like the 2003 & 2005 manuals. They are the last of what I consider the "great" alliant manuals. Because they show pressures with their lrifle & pistol loads.

There's 9 different powder mfg's in that link many with multiple years, well worth bookmarking.

Myself I printed the pistol reloading pages from the 2003 alliant reloading manual & use it all the time as a reference/cross reference.