38 special chrono data, Trail boss, Unique, UC, Titegroup etc.

[Peter M. Eick]

This test involves different reloads, different barrel lengths and guns and commercial ammo.

First the basics facts. Lets start with the test subjects.

Gun 1) Pre-27 8 3/8” 357 magnum. 1957 production. Refinished, unfired prior to this test. Excellent condition overall. It will be called the pre-27.

Gun 2) 38/44 Outdoorsman, 6.5” 38 special, 1950 production, used, shot over 2000 times prior to this test. Excellent condition. My personal favorite N frame. Usually exceptionally accurate. Called the 38/44 OD for this test.

Gun 3) 38/44 Heavy Duty, 5”, 38 special, 1949 production, used, shot around 2000 times prior to the test. Some surface wear, but excellent mechanical condition. Very accurate overall (my favorite Heavy Duty), called the 38/44HD for the test.

Gun 4) Diamondback 4”, 38 special. 1976 production, used, shot around 45,000 times prior to this test. Worn, used, but in great shape. My first center fire, and it has been with me over 25 years. Called the diamondback for this test.

Gun 5) Detective Special, 2”, 38 special, 1976 production, new, never fired before this test. Shot very well and was surprisingly accurate. Called the Detective for this test.

The test equipment was an Oehler 35P chronograph set at 10 feet from the muzzle. Temp was 72f, winds perpendicular to the range at 5 to 10mph, Baro was 29.87, elevation is 79 feet. All shooting was done this afternoon.

The shooting procedure is to shoot a 20 shot string over the 35p and then move to the next gun. No effort was made to point the gun up or down prior to each shot. The goal was to shoot the string just like I would normally shoot at the target. The accuracy was judged by my ability to hit rocks on the berm. Being a public range, there was no practical way of switching targets between each run.

Now the standards
The bullet is always a Lasercast 158 grn LSWC.
The primers are always cci-500 primers
The cases are always starline, twice fired cases.
The press is a pro2000 using a uniflow dispenser, baffle and small micrometer.

The data is presented in a table. The first number is the highest velocity, the next is the lowest, the 3rd number is the extreme spread, the 4th number is the mean, and finally the last number is the standard deviation for the 20 shot string.

Here is the data, remember this is for a 20 shot string.

Trailboss, 4.0 grns
trailboss 4.0 10/10/2005 pre27-8 720 606 114 683 29
trailboss 4.0 10/10/2005 38/44 od 730 615 115 696 27
trailboss 4.0 10/10/2005 38/44hd 758 642 116 704 28
trailboss 4.0 10/10/2005 diamond 757 663 94 723 23
trailboss 4.0 10/10/2005 detective 702 609 93 651 25

Unique, 4.6 grns
unique 4.6 10/10/2005 pre27-8 941 778 163 843 43
unique 4.6 10/10/2005 38/44 od 993 839 154 895 42
unique 4.6 10/10/2005 38/44hd 980 855 125 925 31
unique 4.6 10/10/2005 diamond 946 843 103 893 32
unique 4.6 10/10/2005 detective 830 709 121 781 27

Universal Clays, 4.2 grns
univ. clay 4.2 10/10/2005 pre27-8 848 663 185 784 40
univ. clay 4.2 10/10/2005 38/44 od 860 699 161 797 44
univ. clay 4.2 10/10/2005 38/44hd 867 776 91 817 26
univ. clay 4.2 10/10/2005 diamond 880 755 127 811 33
univ. clay 4.2 10/10/2005 detective 763 628 135 703 35

AA2imp, 3.7 grns
aa2imp 3.7 10/10/2005 pre27-8 795 743 52 771 12
aa2imp 3.7 10/10/2005 38/44 od 832 769 63 795 18
aa2imp 3.7 10/10/2005 38/44hd 827 776 51 809 13
aa2imp 3.7 10/10/2005 diamond 820 790 30 809 10
aa2imp 3.7 10/10/2005 detective 732 707 25 720 5

Titegroup, 3.5 grns
titegroup 3.5 10/10/2005 pre27-8 799 761 38 781 11
titegroup 3.5 10/10/2005 38/44 od 846 762 84 802 26
titegroup 3.5 10/10/2005 38/44hd 840 795 45 823 14
titegroup 3.5 10/10/2005 diamond 860 799 61 827 17
titegroup 3.5 10/10/2005 detective 760 714 46 732 13

Magtech, 148 grn lead wadcutter, commercial ammo
pre27-8 732 631 101 698 26
38/44 od 750 583 167 718 34
38/44hd 767 681 86 727 20
diamond 742 679 63 716 19
detective 672 599 73 640 20

CCI Blazer 158 grn lead round nose commercial ammo
pre27-8 735 679 56 710 19
38/44 od 824 728 96 771 27
38/44hd 791 758 33 775 11
diamond 786 736 50 765 17
detective 695 658 37 675 11

General thoughts and comments:
I have a very slow pre27 8 3/8”. Interesting how it can be outrun by even a 4” diamondback in most cases. On the other hand, my 5” heavy duty is fast! It can usually out run the 6.5” outdoorsman and the 8 3/8” pre-27 nearly every time.

Trail boss is a great powder. Accurate and fluffy. I think I need about 4.2 grns to equal the blazer load. It is an accurate powder, but the SD’s are pretty high. It shoots very accurately. I could routinely hit within 3” at 70 yards out of the heavy duty or the outdoorsman.

My standard Unique load that I shot for years is HOT. Wow, I am surprised at how fast it is cooking and this is after I toned it down from 5.0 grns about a decade ago. It is quite accurate regardless of the SD numbers. Not sure why that is, but this is an accurate load.

Universal clays did not shoot well out of any of the guns. Not bad, just not as good as other powders like AA2 improved. Very good powder (AA2 that is). The AA2 load should come down maybe a tenth or so. My titegroup load is good for the 38/44’s but a bit hot for the colts. Need to back it down to about 3.2 grns overall.

I could type more, but having entered all of this data, I am tired and just want to dump it up here for you all to analyze.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

I guess now that it is up here. I should comment on the difference in barrel lengths.

I was very surprised at how little difference there was between the 2" detective special and the 6.5" OD or the 8 3/8" Pre-27. Surprisingly, I also found the DS to be very accurate for such a short barrel. To bad it was not easier to use.

Your suggestions, thoughts or comments would be welcome.

My next big experiment by the way is to recreate the 38/44 High Speed load using 2400 and a "sacraficial" 38/44 heavy duty pre-war. I want to see how hard I have to push a 158 grn SWC to get to Elmers old loads. He published some "hot" ones a while back so it is my next research project.

Final thought? Trail boss is a great powder, but I need to rethink my hatred of Titegroup and I need to give aa2improved a second look.

 

[Bacchus]

Interesting data. Thanks for putting that up--will need to spend some more time browsing through it.

My only comment is about what you said you're going to do next--use 2400 on a new batch. I had lots of trouble with unburned powder in 38 special reloads using 2400. It may be too slow for what you're looking for. But good luck anyway.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

More random thoughts.

I decided I need to bring trail boss up to 4.2 grns for 38 special to match normal velocity loads. This is the book max so I figure it will be fine and I will chrono it again.

Unique is interesting. My standard load of 4.6 grns turns out to be above what the aliant manual suggest for even +p. They say 4.3 max for Unique, and 4.5 for +p. Speer says up to 5 grns is ok for normal, lyman says 5.1 max for normal and 5.4 +p. If you look at the velocities, 4.6 is already at +p velocites. The OD will do 862 on a 158+p, the HD does 887 the diamond does 872 for the same factory +p load. Obviously 4.6 is to hot and 4.3 is probably much closer to the truth. I think I will drop Unique and UC from my 38 special loads.

AA2improved is fine a 3.7 but I will back it down to 3.6 for the colts.

Titegroup is fine at 3.5, but I think 3.4 will be better load all in all. It does give very good SD's though but I still don't like how little space it takes in the powder.


Final thought, to bad I could not get the table to line up better.

 

[anonanon]

Interesting data, Peter, and thorough enough to be depended on. I may try some Trailboss as a result of it.
FYI, my 8" Dan Wesson .357 produces about the same velocity as my 6.5" Taurus, and what for me is a snub-nose .357, 6" Dan Wesson, is by far the fastest of the three. At 700 f/s levels it's not significant, but at magnum levels it's over 1400 f/s with loads that average just under 1300 f/s in the other two. I've adjusted the flash gap on the Dan Wessons to be the same, so that's not it (although a wide gap can run 250 f/s slower than a real tight gap at magnum velocities). The 8" barrel has had a lot more rounds through it than the 6"; the 6.5" is new.
The 8", with its heavy barrel shroud, is considerably more accurate though.

 

[BluesBear]

What were the cylinder gaps of the test revolvers?

And the one variable I rarely see addressed is bore diameter.

I have slugged several Colt .38 Special and .357 magnum revolvers that were .355" and .356".
And I have encountered a few S&Ws that were .358" and one that was .359"!

Mismatched bore diameter seem to have a greater effect on cast lead bullets than with jacketed.

 

[saltydog452]

Your work is appreciated and..

thanks for sharing your results.

Regarding 2400...Back when I used to reload a bit, I solved much of the unburned powder issue by making the expander button a bit smaller. That gave me what might be charitibly called a full length crimp on the bullet. I guess it provided more uniform resistance than roll crimp alone. I dunno, but there was less unburned 2400 in the revolver after firing.

I roll crimped also but used a seperate die after seating.

Thanks again Mr. Eick.

salty.

 

[roo_ster]

Mr. Eick:

Thank you for the data. I was doing something similar for my SW686 with 2400 & 158gr LSWC Sunday (15.2 & 15.3 grains).

I already have 50 rounds loaded with varying amounts of Trail Boss, 158gr LSWC in .357mag. I just need to get to the range to see how it works.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

I will have to go and dig out a feeler guage to check the barrel gaps. Just eyeballing them, they look about normal and nothing special on any of them. I think Blues is right about the bore though. I had read that the S&W's can be a bit wide and the Colts are a bit tight which might explain a bunch.

 

[callgood]

Interesting how the standard deviation for the detective is the lowest or among the lowest for all powders. I am interested in reloading Speer Gold Dot .38's for short barrels (Smith 442). Thanks for taking the time to post your results.

 

[ChristopherG]

Great data, Mr. Eick; thank you for sharing it.

callwell--in case you're not aware, Speer has published a pdf giving load data for their 135 gr. short barrel gold dot. It's too big to attach, but here's a link to get it from Speer:

http://www.speer-bullets.com/pdf/ReloadingSupplementalDATA/38s135GD.pdf

 

[The Bushmaster]

I do not wish to high jack this string as I, too, am very interested in the results of TB in .38 Special and other calibres, but....I keep hearing about "unburned" powder using 2400. Are we talking about the (what looks like) insect eggs (tinny yellowish balls) left after firing or actual flakes of powder???

ChristopherG...I went to the speer site and read it (I thought) thoroughly. I then printed a copy for future reference. Then I noticed something.
"Test Conditions---Case: SPEER; Primer: CCI*500; Test Firearm: S&W M14; Barrel:6" 1-18 3/4" twist"...Why are we testing a bullet made for short barrels in a long barrel? Then they go on to say how they will work in short (2") barrels. I have tried to exceed 800 fps in my wifes mod 10 2" snubby and so far the highest I can achieve safely is 750 fps using several powders. 20,000 psi? What does that compute to in CUP??

Man...Did I ever high jack this string...Sorry guys...

 

[grendelbane]

I have noticed the tendency of Colt revolvers to be "fast" over the years. I have an Official Police with a 4" barrel that is really fast.

Colt barrels typically are tighter, and they have a 1 in 14" twist.

Like you, I used to shoot a lot of 5 grain Unique loads in .38 Spl. I always found them to be accurate. Most of mine went through .357s, so I don't think any of them suffered. Winchester used to recommend 4.6 grains of 231 as a .38 +P load. 231 is quite a bit faster than Unique, so I find it hard to believe that an equivalent load firing Unique would generate excessive pressure.

I have loaded 2400 in Spl cases. Elmer's loads are fun, but today's brass is thicker, reducing volume, and I believe that today's primers are a little hotter also. Some people claim that 2400 has also changed, but if it has, it did it before my time.

 

[The Bushmaster]

W-231 +P loads are up to 5.3 grains now. (WORK UP TO THEM CAREFULLY)