38 special defensive loads

[Stefan A]

Like I said, I've learned a lot here. So, I just need to decide if I will buy factory or reload. Seems there's proponents of both here. If I reload, then which bullet - SWC, WC, and XTP's seem to be the most popular. I guess if I go for the XTP's, I'd get 125g and push for 1000+ FPS. Seems like I would need that speed for expansion. I have no experience loading WC's, but I am understanding that they are all about just punching a brutally damaging hole. So, I really am not sure here - but I am leaning toward just buying factory.

 

[N555]

The Treasury Load article looked at factory loaded ammo, and aside from the Winchester +P+ load, all are within standard or +P pressure limits.

You need to look at more reloading manuals, because the data is out there. All the handloads in that article were assembled based on data in load manuals.

The 158s at 1000 fps from a 2" barrel is real. I've chronographed some from my guns. An Underwood load chronographed at just a tad over 1000 fps from my 1.875" barrel. Manufacturers have access to powder we don't, and selecting the right ones can give a big boost in velocity for the same pressure.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=263

I have no doubt that enough powder in a 38spl case can push a 158gr bullet 1,000fps from a 2 inch barrel.
If anyone posted a 38spl load that pushes a 158gr bullet in excess of 1,000fps out of a 2 inch barrel it would no doubt have the forum "over max warning".

 

[AJC1]

I have no doubt that enough powder in a 38spl case can push a 158gr bullet 1,000fps from a 2 inch barrel.
If anyone posted a 38spl load that pushes a 158gr bullet in excess of 1,000fps out of a 2 inch barrel it would no doubt have the forum "over max warning".

Try blue dot or lil gun so you can shoot, flashbang, and flame thrower all in one....

 

[N555]

It would make a great flame show.
I have bluedot.
Bluedot loads I have show a 158gr max load at 950 and that's with a 4 inch bbl.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Try blue dot or lil gun so you can shoot, flashbang, and flame thrower all in one....

Are you SURE we’re not related?


My best advice is always to follow your gut. It won’t let you down.

 

[BJung]

This is my 38-135 Speer Gold Dot test load using a Speer Case, CCI Primers, and 6.8gr AA5 with a 1.6" group at 18yds. This was shot through my S&W Model 66. If you were to reload and can find the bullet, buy the Gold Dot. Both NYPD and LAPD rate the bullet as excellent. Another option from my notes from someone who used a Ruger LCR was Corbon DPX.

 

[Stefan A]

OK - decision made. I just bought some 158g coated SWC from Missouri Bullets. I will load it with 4g of 231. Of course, bring it up to that gradually.

 

[moranna]

I have been able to get consistent expansion (0.6") using 130g HST and 135g GDHP bullets at 850 FPS

Shot out of a Ruger Six snub and Taurus 856 using 3-4 differeent powders

 

[kalielkslayer]

Everything here has value.

But the thing missing is recoil. Shooting a 2” barrel .357 mag isn’t something you can get back in target quickly.

I have a Ruger SP101, 2” barrel. After lots, and lots of practice, I decided that plus P loads were way better than full strength.357 mag loads.
With P+ loads I could manage the recoil, drop back on the target, repeat.

With .357 mag loads target acquisition was like starting all over again.

My gun has custom grips that help me manage the recoil.

I get that any given bullet traveling 1100 fps is gonna do more damage than the same bullet doing 900 fps.

But with a 4” sighting radius, every shot isn’t gonna be a hit. So fast follow up shots are where my head is at.

I get the other theories. But my practice sessions have me convinced!

 

[Stefan A]

But the thing missing is recoil. Shooting a 2” barrel .357 mag isn’t something you can get back in target quickly.

It’s not missing. This thread isn’t about shooting 357 mag from a 2” barrel. I’m talking about 38 special.

 

[35 Whelen]

I wouldn't trust a one-size-fits-all jacketed bullet to expand at the velocities attained out of a 2" barrel, I'd use soft cast.

I've water-tested some of my own 8 Bhn cast HP's in .31, .358, .44 and .45 calibers and depending on the shape and size of the HP cavity they expand at surprisingly low velocities. These are some 158-ish gr. SWCHP's I cast and tested-



Were I wanting to buy such projectiles, I'd look no further than Rim Rock's .38/.357 158 gr. SWCHP. I'm pretty sure this is the bullet Buffalo Bore uses in their Heavy .38 Special +P ammo

35W

 

[Palladan44]

Hornady 125 gr XTPs
Book loads, and GTG.
I like how Hornady prints for "Personal Protection" right on the box....so the usage is endorsed by the manufacturer, and they are the most common hollow point bullet sold for reloading. You can't go wrong.

 

[Hole maker]

Everything here has value.

But the thing missing is recoil. Shooting a 2” barrel .357 mag isn’t something you can get back in target quickly.

I have a Ruger SP101, 2” barrel. After lots, and lots of practice, I decided that plus P loads were way better than full strength.357 mag loads.
With P+ loads I could manage the recoil, drop back on the target, repeat.

With .357 mag loads target acquisition was like starting all over again.

My gun has custom grips that help me manage the recoil.

I get that any given bullet traveling 1100 fps is gonna do more damage than the same bullet doing 900 fps.

But with a 4” sighting radius, every shot isn’t gonna be a hit. So fast follow up shots are where my head is at.

I get the other theories. But my practice sessions have me convinced!

I agree with 2" recoil 357mag but a 4" if you take that micro second to aim you are much better than random shooting with a 2" So you have shot both 2" and 4" real quick at a certain range and found better on target from the 2"? you must hunt with an auto bang bang bang

 

[kalielkslayer]

I agree with 2" recoil 357mag but a 4" if you take that micro second to aim you are much better than random shooting with a 2" So you have shot both 2" and 4" real quick at a certain range and found better on target from the 2"? you must hunt with an auto bang bang bang

I’m confused. Hunting I’ve never been shot at. I have been shot at and the adrenaline is 10Xs anything I have experienced hunting.

My most adrenaline driven hunting has been shooting chukars, trying to get 4, 5, 6 in a covey rise.

And I shot a bull elk, with a bow, at 6 yards, and that was very kool.

But there was a conscious thought process.

Getting shot at brings everything to another level. Everyone is different but the best way for me to describe it is extreme anger. Someone is trying to kill me, so my mind goes into a competitive mode and speeds things up. I grew up boxing in front of 2,000-3,000 people. I think those experiences of having someone try to beat my ass in front of a crowd has helped my mind slow things down.

Auto, bang, bang, bang is how I do birds. But I shoot 400-600 rounds a week so bird hunting is purely instinct anymore. But I do remember misses far more than I remember hits. I dwell on them until the nest hunt.

 

[AJC1]

I agree with 2" recoil 357mag but a 4" if you take that micro second to aim you are much better than random shooting with a 2" So you have shot both 2" and 4" real quick at a certain range and found better on target from the 2"? you must hunt with an auto bang bang bang

This entire reply was provocative and not helpful. We try to add value with our snark...

 

[roo_ster]

Most .38/.357 hollow points need high 900s to 1000fps to reliably work as HP (open up/mushroom/etc.)

For 158gr JHP/SJHP/leadHP, that means not only +P pressures from a 2" bbl .38spl, but BuffBore/Underwood/boutique nuke load .38spl+P. Some hand load manuals approach that, but not many. Commercial FBI loads (158gr LSWCHP +P) are not going to have enough velocity from most any 2" bbl .38spl. It works fine from 4" bbl, though. Some 158gr JHP ammos have no reason to exist, as they will never work in 2" bbl revos and rarely in 4" bbl revos. Yes, Hornady 158gr XTP std pressure .38spl, I am looking at YOU.

125g-135gr more likley to hit 950fps+ and get some HP performance, but +P is still a requirement with a 2" bbl.

110gr can get to 1000fps the easiest, but begins to lag on penetration.

After getting older and having to manage upper limb surgeries & injuries, I am less likely to insist on HP perfromance from a snubby. These days I rely on 148gr target wadcuttters in the gun and standard presure 158gr LSWC for reloads in my snubbies. For woodsy use & minimalist "Bear" loads, I run a 158gr hard cast WC & LSWC at the top end of hte manuals.

A 38spl+p out of a 2 inch barrel is only going to do like 800fps if you are lucky.

Not true. Not even close.

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/38-special-treasury-load/389102
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=109

Super Vel's Super Snubby clocks 1300 fps from a 2" barrel.

https://supervelammunition.com/38-special-p-super-snub-90-gr-jhp-20-count-box/

And there are 158 grain 38 Special +P that will clock at 1000 fps from a 2" barrel.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=288
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=108
https://underwoodammo.com/38-special-p-158-grain-hard-cast-keith/

For most values of .38spl +P in a 2" bbl snubby, it is true.
* Most HP .38spl loads come in 125gr-158gr, and 110gr is much less common.
* Yes, boutique ammo exists, but the exceptions are just that: exceptional.

I have shot all the commercial loads you listed, save the Supervel. Rather unpleasant, though BB & UW do produce quality ammo. If you and your gun can manage the recoil and be effective, good on ya. The vast majority of snubby shoters won't be able to manage BB/UW hot loads.

OK - decision made. I just bought some 158g coated SWC from Missouri Bullets. I will load it with 4g of 231. Of course, bring it up to that gradually.

A good choice. I have used Missouri bullets and found them good for my .357mag loads. The coating will allow you to run them however mild or wild you want.

Good luck.

 

[Hole maker]

This entire reply was provocative and not helpful. We try to add value with our snark...

 

[Bcwitt]

I prefer a lighter bullet in a short barrel. Something like a 110.

 

[KY DAN]

7.2 grains Hs-6 with a speer 158 lead semi wad cutter hollow point bullet.

Awesome load which replicates the "fbi"/st louis police department load back in the day.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

7.2 grains Hs-6 with a speer 158 lead semi wad cutter hollow point bullet.

Awesome load which replicates the "fbi"/st louis police department load back in the day.

That’s a smokin’ hot load even for a +P+!! Approach with extreme caution!

 

[JDeere]

+P or not a stout loaded 158gr SWC all day long is where I would go with that pistol. No need to worry about all the other will it or will it not expand hp mess. Keep it simple...

 

[Shivahasagun]

Most .38/.357 hollow points need high 900s to 1000fps to reliably work as HP (open up/mushroom/etc.)

For 158gr JHP/SJHP/leadHP, that means not only +P pressures from a 2" bbl .38spl, but BuffBore/Underwood/boutique nuke load .38spl+P. Some hand load manuals approach that, but not many. Commercial FBI loads (158gr LSWCHP +P) are not going to have enough velocity from most any 2" bbl .38spl. It works fine from 4" bbl, though. Some 158gr JHP ammos have no reason to exist, as they will never work in 2" bbl revos and rarely in 4" bbl revos. Yes, Hornady 158gr XTP std pressure .38spl, I am looking at YOU.

125g-135gr more likley to hit 950fps+ and get some HP performance, but +P is still a requirement with a 2" bbl.

110gr can get to 1000fps the easiest, but begins to lag on penetration.

After getting older and having to manage upper limb surgeries & injuries, I am less likely to insist on HP perfromance from a snubby. These days I rely on 148gr target wadcuttters in the gun and standard presure 158gr LSWC for reloads in my snubbies. For woodsy use & minimalist "Bear" loads, I run a 158gr hard cast WC & LSWC at the top end of hte manuals.




For most values of .38spl +P in a 2" bbl snubby, it is true.
* Most HP .38spl loads come in 125gr-158gr, and 110gr is much less common.
* Yes, boutique ammo exists, but the exceptions are just that: exceptional.

I have shot all the commercial loads you listed, save the Supervel. Rather unpleasant, though BB & UW do produce quality ammo. If you and your gun can manage the recoil and be effective, good on ya. The vast majority of snubby shoters won't be able to manage BB/UW hot loads.



A good choice. I have used Missouri bullets and found them good for my .357mag loads. The coating will allow you to run them however mild or wild you want.

Good luck.

Every bit of this is true.

I've tested the factory .38 Hornady XTP in 125 and 158 gr from a snub. They do not expand. Not even close.

There are many factory JHP "defense" loads, in all calibers, that simply don't perform as advertised. Yet they've been making them for years without change.

OP, you can go lighter HP bullet loaded hot, with reduced penetration, or heavier, hot bullet and deal with the recoil, or go with a milder, non-expanding bullet.

I have a 3-inch Colt King Cobra .357 and when I carry it have 160 gr GT LHP's I load to 915 fps in .38 cases. Expanded alot in my unscientific testing. As in I wouldn't push them any faster or they'll start coming apart. Recoil isn't that bad, the fast powder I use helps in that regard. But I'd call it a +p+ load because it's just over book for +p, but way below .357 pressure according to a computer program.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Every bit of this is true.

I've tested the factory .38 Hornady XTP in 125 and 158 gr from a snub. They do not expand. Not even close.

There are many factory JHP "defense" loads, in all calibers, that simply don't perform as advertised. Yet they've been making them for years without change.

OP, you can go lighter HP bullet loaded hot, with reduced penetration, or heavier, hot bullet and deal with the recoil, or go with a milder, non-expanding bullet.

I have a 3-inch Colt King Cobra .357 and when I carry it have 160 gr GT LHP's I load to 915 fps in .38 cases. Expanded alot in my unscientific testing. As in I wouldn't push them any faster or they'll start coming apart. Recoil isn't that bad, the fast powder I use helps in that regard. But I'd call it a +p+ load because it's just over book for +p, but way below .357 pressure according to a computer program.

^^^^ This ^^^^
Adding: Approach with caution.

 

[KY DAN]

That’s a smokin’ hot load even for a +P+!! Approach with extreme caution!

Ok first off some back story here

HS-6 is the rebranding of the discontinued winchester 540.

Hs6 data does not support this load winchester 540 does support this data.

Further more using the data for winchester 540 places this load in a +p category at best.

I have shot these loads in steel j frame model 36s and k frame smith's. No issues

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Ok first off some back story here

HS-6 is the rebranding of the discontinued winchester 540.

Hs6 data does not support this load winchester 540 does support this data.

Further more using the data for winchester 540 places this load in a +p category at best.

I have shot these loads in steel j frame model 36s and k frame smith's. No issues

I would still recommend approaching that load with extreme caution. It’s a hot load, for sure, and has been deprecated from current manuals/online data. Why? Who knows. Maybe it’s too hot, maybe it’s too risky, maybe Hodgdon decided to market HS6 as a lower-pressure powder to push a different product. Don’t know. I do know different guns have different tolerances and it ALWAYS makes sense to approach a very hot load with caution. That’s how we avoid bang conversion to boom.