.38 special +P. Why not hotter?

[longdayjake]

Okay so I was looking up the loads for .38 special +P on the Hodgon website and saw that the pressures are just over half of the pressures in hot .357 magnum loads. There is plenty of room left in the casing to add more powder to get up to magnum pressures if one was to want to do it. Why then are the pressures so much lower on the .38 +P? Is it because revolvers chambered for .38 don't have the same strength as a .357 magnum? Is it because the .38 special is shorter and cant spread out the pressure as much as the .357? I guess what I want to know is why can't .38 +P be loaded as hot as .357 magnum since there seems to be enough room to add enough powder to match the pressures of the .357?

 

[suemarkp]

The case doesn't contribute much to strength if a modern design (non balloon head). The gun is the problem. There is the raw pressure in the brass which is trying to explode the cylinder walls (uncontained brass in any caliber will blow up if not in a chamber -- it doesn't have much strength). There is the force between the cylinder and the backstrap of the gun which is pressure * area. This is trying to stretch the gun or worse torque the cylinder about its centerline making it fit sloppy.

Would the gun blow up if you put a 357 load in it? Probably not. But you're pretty close to a proof load, so I wouldn't shoot many like that as it wasn't designed for all that force.

 

[Steve C]

Is it because revolvers chambered for .38 don't have the same strength as a .357 magnum?

Short answer is YES.

.38 spl pistols are not designed to be used with pressures as high as the .357 mag. It costs the manufacturer money for extra hardening and stronger materials to withstand the pressures of the magnum revolvers. They do not expend money to make a product exceed the parameters of the cartridge they are chambered for.

As mentioned, a good quality gun may not blow up if a magnum pressure round is shot in it, at least not the first time but use of higher pressure ammo than it was designed for will soon cause serious damage. Stretched frames, shaken out of time, cracked cylinders or forcing cones, excessive end shake is some of the damage that can be expected from heavy loads.

 

[evan price]

.38 pistols were designed for .38 loads. That's the reason .357 Magnum exists at all- they wanted a cartridge that would NOT fit into a .38 chambered gun to prevent someone from blowing up a .38- so they took a .38 and made it a bit longer to contain the new, more powerful loading.

Obviously with today's fast, low charge weight powders you can take a .38 up to Magnum levels easily. It's not a good idea. The "K"-frame S&Ws in .357 (Model 19) it's not a good idea to shoot a lot of heavy Magnum loads in- and it is a Magnum gun. Try that with a good steel S&W 38 (Model 10?) and it might hold up for a little while. Try it in a cheaper gun, or in a lightweight alloy gun, you've got a hand grenade.

 

[loadedround]

One simple word...KABOOM!

 

[The Bushmaster]

You sure are rather blunt this morning, Loadedround. But I do agree...

.38 Special loaded to .357 magnum specifications and fired in a .38 Special........KAABOOM!!!

 

[longdayjake]

.38 Special loaded to .357 magnum specifications and fired in a .38 Special........KAABOOM!!!

Thats what I figured. So, to add a little gas to the fire, what if one was to shoot them through a .357 magnum like a 686 or something? Since the .357 is supposedly designed to shoot higher pressure loads, could it support a .38 loaded up to magnum pressures?

What I am trying to find out is if the only reason that .38 can't be loaded up to .357 levels is because of the gun that it is fired out of.

 

[rcmodel]

.38 Special cases are not as strong as .357 Mag cases.

Look inside the empties from each caliber and you will note the case web walls near the base are thicker on the Magnum case.

But, that is not to say you can't load .38 cases hotter then +P pressure safely for use in a .357 Mag revolver.
It's just that you will find no published modern data to tell you how to do it!

And heaven forbid some of them get in grandpa's 75 year old .38 Special somehow.

Bottom line is, in the grand scheme of things shooting costs related, using the correct cases for the power level you wish to reach is not a deal-breaker.

rc

 

[jmorris]

The 38 special was introduced in 1899. The 357 magnum came out in 1934. Elmer Keith used a modified 44 special (different cylinder and barrel) for development the only reason it’s longer than the 38 is so it can’t chamber in the less robust 38’s causing a dangerous situation.

 

[USSR]

...what if one was to shoot them through a .357 magnum like a 686 or something? Since the .357 is supposedly designed to shoot higher pressure loads, could it support a .38 loaded up to magnum pressures?

Yep, that's how the .357 Magnum came to be; .38 Special brass loaded to .357 Magnum pressures and fired in a S&W N frame revolver. The extra length of the .357 Magnum case was only added at a later date to prevent them from being fired in light frame .38 Special revolvers. Skeeter Skelton published some hot loads in .38 Special brass designed to be fired in .357 revolvers.

Don

 

[longdayjake]

Thanks! That answers my question perfectly. I am curious about this Skeeter Skelton fella. Any info on where I can find his load data?

 

[rcmodel]

NO, but here is some .38 Spl data that will do all you need to do with a .38 Spl case.

http://sixguns.com/tests/tt38spcl.htm


Skeeters load was:
WAY ABOVE current MAX loads.
Risky business if you are not an experianced reloader!
For use in .357 guns only!

Lyman #358156 155 grain GC cast bullet, crimped in the second groove, over 13.5 grains 2400 in .38 Spl cases.

rc

 

[Steve C]

Its a bad idea to load .38's to mag pressures even if you intend to shoot them in a magnum pistol. Skeeter and other old timers did load the .38 heavy for magnum performance but it was because during WWII the availability of .357 mag brass was severely limited. Since this is not the case now there's no excuse for not using magnum brass for magnum loads.

Problems can arise if your hot loaded .38's fall into the hands of someone else who fires them in a .38. Despite your best intentions this could happen to a friend or family member where you'd feel really bad about damaging them or their gun not to mention potential legal liability. There are numerous situations where this could happen. Range buddies could pick up one of your rounds and put them in their .38. You could drop a round and someone else could pick it up or it could get mixed in with other .38's.

 

[Walkalong]

Its a bad idea to load .38's to mag pressures even if you intend to shoot them in a magnum pistol.

For all the reasons stated above. Get .357 brass and load it to whatever power level you want, assuming it is not over max for .357.

OF .357 brass these days costs a lot more than .38 brass, so the temptation is there for sure.

To quote Sherrif Bufford T Justice...Oh, you can think about it, but don't do it.

 

[rcmodel]

+1

I completely agree!

If you can afford a .357 revolver, you can afford the correct ammo for it!

rc

 

[The Bushmaster]

I knew you two would finally get around to my way of thinking...What took you soo long??

.38 Specials are for .38 Specials and .357 magnums are for .357 magnum...

 

[Old Fuff]

Can you load a .38 Special to equal or even surpass a .357 Magnum???

Sure.

But the first .38 Special revolvers were made in 1899, and this super-banger could be fired in any .38 Special revolver made between 1899 and now.

And as has been pointed out, the most likely result would be a KABOOM!!!

Followed by a lawsuit againist the ammunition company - even possibly the revolver maker... :banghead:

Which is a pretty good reason the ammunition companies will not offer a .38 Special load that's even close to a .357 Magnum.

 

[zxcvbob]

Look up ".38/44 High Velocity"

I load 35000 psi .38 Specials for my Marlin rifle. I mark the box "Rifle Use Only!" (they are also OK in .357 magnum handguns, but don't want to clutter up the label) and, this is the important part, I mark the case heads with a wide-tip red Magic Marker. If the cartridges get separated from the box, they still look suspicious.

 

[Old Fuff]

Yup, that's ammunition loaded by you, for you.

But would you care to sell it to retailers that would sell it to anyone who walked in the door, and have no control over what gun it might end up in?

 

[Clark]

I have blown up a number of 38 specials.

Sometimes the cylinder breaks in two.
Sometime the cylinder breaks in three.
Sometimes the top strap breaks, sometime it doesn't.
I bent the frame on an Aluminum frame 38sp.

The pieces of the revolver did not come back at me, but put holes in sheet metal and plywood to the sides. [ Read: Don't stand alongside someone blowing up a revolver.]


The load book industry has really taken some wrong turns.

"Speer 6" 1964 38 s&w special 160 gr. soft point 11 gr. 2400
"Speer 6" 1964 357 mag 160 gr. soft point 15 gr. 2400
Midway "Load map" 1999 357 mag Speer 160 gr. soft point 10.9 gr. 2400


What went wrong that Midway could get the max loads so far off and make
a useless load book?
How can 357 mag max has gone below 38 Special?

The "Load Map" says they used an "Oehler System 83 and piezoelectric transducers, the latest
in industry standard equipment".

This is nuts.
This is a wrong turn.

 

[longdayjake]

Just to make it clear, I was not planning on doing any .38 heavy loads. I just noticed the huge difference in pressures between the two and wanted to know why it was so different. Then, once I get a little info on a subject I kind of get curious and want to know the rest. It at least is good to know that its possible when and if .357 magnum brass becomes impossible to get like it was 3 or 4 months ago.

None of my handloads are ever given to anyone else to shoot. I have met people that claim to sell their handloads (i assume illegally) and it makes me shutter to think of what could happen. I don't even shoot factory ammo anymore since I can load my own and know what is in them.

 

[Oyeboten]

I suppose, in theory, one could load the old .38 S&W Cartridges to .357 Magnum performance...but, there are no Revolvers chambered for it that would stand it!


It's ironic, that within a year or so of it's introduction as a BP Cartridge, the .38 Special was obsolete, by virtue of it's length, for being converted into being a 'Smokeless' Cartridge.


Then, later, the .357 Magnum spin-off, being of course, even longer as a 'safety' precaution to prevent chambering in a .38 Special Revolver...when, the interior space of the stubby little 1872 .38 S&W Cartridge, already had all the room they needed, for either, if 'Smokeless'...

 

[rcmodel]

Well not exactly.
The first .357 factory loads used a case nearly full of Dupont 2400 powder with a 158 lead bullet. It was pretty much using all the case capacity it had.

rc

 

[zxcvbob]

Yup, that's ammunition loaded by you, for you.

But would you care to sell it to retailers that would sell it to anyone who walked in the door, and have no control over what gun it might end up in?

That's why you can't buy factory .38/44HV ammo anymore.

 

[Jim Watson]

What is seldom mentioned is that Skeeter said he got once fired brass from the Border Patrol pistol team and used it for very few heavy loadings (maybe only one, I don't have that old book before me) before demoting it back to standard velocity. Case head separations are no fun, even though the brass does not add much strength to the chamber.

He also said he was getting 1250 fps from the given load with that 155 grain Thompson gas check bullet in a 4" barrel. Look at the current specs for .357 magnum and see how little he was giving up.