38 Special Recipe

[WildeKurt]

Well I managed to scrounge up components (even Gander Mtn. had a crap selection). What I ended up with is 158 grain JHP (Speer, really wanted LSWC), Unique powder and Winchester small pistol primers (really wanted CCI). None of my data sheets give recipes for this combo exactly except the Lee book under 357 Magnum (7.2 grains of Unique). I was really hoping to do something in 38 Special or even +P. Anyone have something I can use?

 

[Jim Watson]

I doubt you will be able to find a "recipe" specific to those exact components. What you do is take the loads given for any 158 gr jacketed bullet, any primer, and Unique powder in .38 Special brass and then apply the fine print about "starting loads" and "working up."

If your gun is a .38 Special +P rated by the maker or a .357, then there is no risk in starting with the top load given for .38 Special standard pressure. This is about the ONLY case I know of offhand where you can blithely start with a maximum load, so do not take this as a license to start at the maximum listed load anywhere else.

 

[WildeKurt]

I have a recipe for a 160 grain jacketed bullet. According to Lee, going with a slightly heavier bullet is OK. So I could do a 158 grain bullet at 4 grains of Unique. (given load for 160 grain bullet). These will be going through a 357 magnum, so it doesn't appear to be a dangerous load.

 

[db_tanker]

The Lyman 48th edition calls for the following...


Unique starting 4.7 645 14,400 MAX 5.0 710 16,600


1.480 OAL and that is with a HORNADY 158 gr. JHP....but that should make little diffrence...especially at those pressures in a 357 Mag.


Hope this helps!

D

 

[Walkalong]

I like any primer (I'm useing WSP right now, but Fed 100 worked well also) and 4.3 Grs. 700X with a Ranier 125 RnFP at 1.400 O.A.L. I have a lot of 700X. Other powders work well also. I don't care for Unique, too dirty. .

 

[WildeKurt]

+P Cases

And to bring up another question: Can I use regular 38 special brass with +P loads? I think the answer is yes. I have brass from both standard and +P factory loads. I'm more afraid of loading too light so would work my way up toward +P loadings. (Besides I like them).

 

[Steve C]

There is no difference between +P and standard .38 spl brass except the head stamp for load discrimination so there's no issue loading +P level loads in any .38 spl brass.

Most loading manuals have stopped listing loads with 158gr jacketed bullets in the .38 spl as you can't get enough velocity, even at +P to ensure reliable expansion with jacketed bullets heavier than 140grs.

I'd suggest you stay below 5.0grs of Unique if there's ever a chance you may be shooting your handloads in a .38 spl, either yours or someone elses. Alliant list 4.4grs as maximum +P with a 160gr Jacketed bullet. 2 less grains of weight in the 158 gr jacketed bullet will not increase the maximum load beyond that.

 

[joneb]

Unique is dirty at lower pressures, and does burn cleaner at higher pressures.
Steve C brings up a good point

I'd suggest you stay below 5.0grs of Unique if there's ever a chance you may be shooting your handloads in a .38 spl, either yours or someone elses. Alliant list 4.4grs as maximum +P with a 160gr Jacketed bullet.

So you could use .357 mag cases and start at 6.5 gr of Unique with WSP. I have loaded 158gr LSWC w/6.2gr of Unique and WSP and they shot well.

 

[WildeKurt]

Most loading manuals have stopped listing loads with 158gr jacketed bullets in the .38 spl as you can't get enough velocity, even at +P to ensure reliable expansion with jacketed bullets heavier than 140grs.

How about a nice light 357 Magnum Load. From Lee: 7.2 grains of Unique as a starting load. Can I go lighter? A light 357 Mag load would be good for IPSC shooting.

 

[Steve C]

How about a nice light 357 Magnum Load. From Lee: 7.2 grains of Unique as a starting load.

I think you'll find that there isn't anything "light" about 7.2 grs of Unique with a 158gr JHP/JSP. That's the start load for a full powered magnum and will be close to 1,200 fps +/- from a 4" revolver.

If you want a "light" magnum or +P++ level .38 spl load drop down to 5.5 to 6.0 grs only in magnum cases. Velocity out of a 4" should be around 900 to 1,000 fps. Don't worry about the load being too light, you'd have to drop down to below 3.5grs to have any real problems with potential stuck bullets in a revolver.

 

[bbmoose]

Steve C wrote:

Don't worry about the load being too light, you'd have to drop down to below 3.5grs to have any real problems with potential stuck bullets in a revolver.

Well...

I just started loading 38 special and had a 3.9gr Unique load with 158gr FMJ Rainier bullets stick in my S&W 686 barrel

I have been loading for some time and have always followed the Lyman advice of starting 10% below the advertised loads and working my way up. I took the 4.2gr load from their book and started at 3.8gr which is 10% lower.

I took the loads to the range to chronograph them and the first few came out around 200-300fps?!? WWB factory was around 750fps. I should have quit while I was ahead but then some came out around 550fps. Until the next one, it didn't come out at all.

I had only loaded 30 rounds so I took the remainder home and pulled them apart. I weighed the charges of 22 rounds and the average was 3.8gr, spot on. The lowest charge in the bunch was 3.6gr but I suspect I may have lost a bit of powder during the disassembly process (RCBS bullet puller) because the overall distribution was very tight, 3.7-3.9gr just as advertised by Dillon for their reloader and powder charging.

So, what up? Is the Lyman book just off? Or do the Rainier copper plated bullets behave that much different than real copper jacketed bullets? Other sources show higher charges. Not many data points for 158gr FMJ.

 

[rcmodel]

I can't find a 158 grain/ 4.2 grain Unique load for either .38 Spl. or .357 Mag in my Lyman #47.

.38. Spl.
They list 4.7 starting with 158 JHP (5.0 Max)
3.4 Starting with 158 lead RN. (5.1 Max)

.357 Mag
They list 6.4 starting with 158 JHP. (8.3 Max)
No Unique load listed for that weight lead bullet.

Anyway, plated bullets from Berry & Rainer seem to behave somewhere in between lead & jacketed bullets.
They slug up easily like soft lead, but are "sticky" in the bore like jacketed bullets.

Berry suggests using mid-range Jacketed bullet loading data.
Using light lead bullet data would likely cause stuck bullets in a revolver.


rcmodel

 

[bbmoose]

rcmodel:

You are correct! I had my source wrong. Thanks for finding my error.

Alliant lists the 4.2gr + 160gr JSP load here:

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reload...gtypeid=1&weight=160&shellid=1017&bulletid=42

As you point out Lyman suggests 4.7gr (5.0gr max) for a 158gr JHP. Same thing in my Lyman #48.

Sheesh - see if I trust the Alliant data any more...

I also bought the Loadbooks 38 Special guide and found:

Hornaday - 158gr HP-XTP, 3.9gr = 600fps (5.1gr = 800fps)
Sierra - 158gr JSP, 5.0gr = 750fps (6.1gr max = 900fps)

The 3 ranges are spread out:

4.7 - 5.0gr
3.9 - 5.1gr
5.0 - 6.1gr

So I toss out the Sierra data because it seems like such an outlier.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I just can't get into using Unique for anything. I really prefer W231/HP-38 for the .38 Special and .45 Auto target rounds. I like HS-6 or Longshot for the .38 Special +P and Longshot for top end .38 Special rounds..

From the Hodgdon load data site:

.38 Special +P 158gr Hornady XTP
Longshot .357" 1.455" 5.5 965 17,000 PSI
HS-6 .357" 1.455" 6.6 926 18,700 CUP

.38 Special 158gr Hornady XTP
W231 .357" 1.455" 3.8 661 12,600 CUP -- 4.3 779 15,900 CUP
HS-6 .357" 1.455" 5.6 761 13,400 CUP -- 6.2 862 16,300 CUP

As you can see the load data from most, if not all the manufacturers is totally anemic. The listed data above is a shame IMO. They are calling that Longshot load a +P round yet the pressure produced is only 17,000 PSI which is the current standard for a .38 Special, not a .38 Special +P. You can safely load 5.5gr Longshot under a 158gr Jacketed bullet and shoot it in any.38 Special revolver.

 

[bbmoose]

A lot of the guys at my local club love W231 and are trying to get me to switch. I shoot a lot of 9mm and the last time I looked you couldn't get enough oomph out of W231 for 9mm. I know Unique shoots dirtier. I was looking for one powder I could use for 9mm, 40S&W, 38spl, and 45ACP. Maybe I ended up with the least common denominator?

I have seen the pressures listed in the load data but I don't have any way to measure that other than the subjective "is the primer flattened" method.

 

[evan price]

I load all those with Titegroup.
4.4 grains in 9mm
4.7 grains in 40
3.5 grains in 38spl
5.2 grains in 45

 

[Galil5.56]

BBmoose,

WW231 in 9mm works very well for 115 or 124 grain bullets, cast or jacketed in my experience for std velocity loads. I do like Unique for more oomph, and use it for my SD loads with 124 JHP loads that are pushing 1300 fps. I think you would be very well served for most of your 9mm, 38 special, and 45 auto loadings using WW231. I know I have found it to work very well for the loads I use in the mentioned calibers.

Good luck.

 

[bbmoose]

Thanks everyone for all the answers. I just recently found THR and there is a TON of great info on this forum.

 

[djml66]

1300 fps 124gr 9mm

Galil, you got my attn. What charge and oal do you use, with what bullet?

TIA, dave