gb6491
Member
That's a wise decision; most of the time, people just club them to death
Greg
.38 special roundnose for defense
- Thread starter dmxx9900
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Greg
moph759fl
Member
I have a late 1970s .38 CHIEFS Special Model 36, and I quote from my org. specification page: Some .38 special ammunition is being manufactured to specifically meet U.S. Treasury Department specifications for a more powerful cartridge. This so called Plus-P-Puls or Plus-Plus-P ammunition generates pressures significantly in excess of industry standards and in excess of the pressures associated with commercially-available ammunition. Such pressures may exceed the margin of safety built into many handguns and could therefore be dangerous.
We understand that this ammunition is not being offered for sale commercially, that it is packaged in different boxes, that is marked for law-enforcement use, and that it carries the stamping used by Winchester-Western Division of Olin, and FC-LE identifies such cartridges manufactured by the Federal Cartridge Company.
In the case of Smith & Western handguns chambered for .38 special ammunition, this warning applies to all 5-shot, small frame (Model J) revolvers and to those 6-shot, medium frame (Model K) revolvers manufactured prior to 1958. "
With that said my S&W Model 36 was made after 1958 and I shoot +P ammo anytime I wish.
We understand that this ammunition is not being offered for sale commercially, that it is packaged in different boxes, that is marked for law-enforcement use, and that it carries the stamping used by Winchester-Western Division of Olin, and FC-LE identifies such cartridges manufactured by the Federal Cartridge Company.
In the case of Smith & Western handguns chambered for .38 special ammunition, this warning applies to all 5-shot, small frame (Model J) revolvers and to those 6-shot, medium frame (Model K) revolvers manufactured prior to 1958. "
With that said my S&W Model 36 was made after 1958 and I shoot +P ammo anytime I wish.
DaleCooper51
Member
The main difference between the +P and +P+ is that +P has a SAAMI top end. The +P+ has no top end so depending on the manufacturer it could be just over the +P level all the way up to dangerous pressure levels. As I said before, +P ammo is a far cry from hot 38 specials of years gone past and I would not hesitate to shoot in my steel k-frames. I do have some Corbon +P+ 158 gr LSWC at approximately 1000fps that shoots nicely in my model 66, but is definitely too much for a J-frame.
YMMV, but I still have a hard time understanding the ferocity and fear associated with shooting a 158 gr LSWC +P moving about 900 fps out of a steel k-frame gun. It's just not that hot.
YMMV, but I still have a hard time understanding the ferocity and fear associated with shooting a 158 gr LSWC +P moving about 900 fps out of a steel k-frame gun. It's just not that hot.
papajohn
Member
When I turned in my issue Model Ten last year, I had managed to put a recorded 68,800 rounds through it in a shade over five years, and ALL of them were either full-charge 38 standard-pressure, or +P, most in the latter category. (Almost 30,000 of those rounds went downrange in a single year, I was a bowling pin-shooting JUNKIE!) The gun was well-used when I got it, didn't have much finish left, and the serial number dated it to 1961.
It also had a DA trigger that told me it had been shot a lot through the years, so I wasn't worried about breaking it, hell, it wasn't my gun anyway. So I shot loads that duplicated what I carried on duty, which was a 158-grain +P load. The gun was as tight and accurate when I turned it in as the day I got it, the only difference was that the trigger was a little slicker. Don't sweat +P's in your M-10, at least now and then. Shoot the LRN's for practice, and carry the hot stuff with you, if it makes you feel better. The older Smiths, especially the M-10's, are GREAT guns. If you can wear it out in less than three generations, you're doing a LOT of shooting.
Papajohn
It also had a DA trigger that told me it had been shot a lot through the years, so I wasn't worried about breaking it, hell, it wasn't my gun anyway. So I shot loads that duplicated what I carried on duty, which was a 158-grain +P load. The gun was as tight and accurate when I turned it in as the day I got it, the only difference was that the trigger was a little slicker. Don't sweat +P's in your M-10, at least now and then. Shoot the LRN's for practice, and carry the hot stuff with you, if it makes you feel better. The older Smiths, especially the M-10's, are GREAT guns. If you can wear it out in less than three generations, you're doing a LOT of shooting.
Papajohn
Jim March
Member
Stay AWAY from +P+ unless you know exactly what you've got and what your gun can cope with.
+P+ was a fraud by law enforcement, a way to avoid saying "we use 357Magnums" on a witness stand. The term "magnum" came under fire from the Dirty Harry movies. Most of the police-only +P+ was just a tiny step down from 357...
+P+ was a fraud by law enforcement, a way to avoid saying "we use 357Magnums" on a witness stand. The term "magnum" came under fire from the Dirty Harry movies. Most of the police-only +P+ was just a tiny step down from 357...
pbearperry
Member
+P+ was a fraud by law enforcement?
I wonder how the Police got the ammo makers to join in on this fraud?:banghead:
I wonder how the Police got the ammo makers to join in on this fraud?:banghead:
Cosmoline
Member
?? Are you talking about .38 Specials or .38 S&W. I don't believe anyone has been shot by a 200 grain .38 SPECIAL, because that load is extremely exotic. OTOH the .38-200 load of the S&W was used all over the world.
At any rate, a 148 or 158 grain SPECIAL will NOT bounce off an appliance unless it's seriously downloaded. The S&W might.
kmrcstintn
Member
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- Jan 5, 2006
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- 1,236
I agree that seeking out quality hollowpoint loads is the ideal thing; Buffalo Bore, Winchester (Silvertip 110gr), Federal (HydraShok 110gr), and Hornady (XTP 125gr & 158gr) are the standard pressure ones that I am aware of;
if you feel that a solid 158gr leadhead is better, get a semiwadcutter design; if you really want a 158gr lrn, then get CCI Blazer (aluminum cased) 158gr lrn...the lead is hardened and shaped more like a 9mm fmj bullet; this should offer you better penetration, but be aware of overpenetration; be sure you don't have any precious things in front of or behind the walls in your house (especially loved ones) since a hardened lead round nose makes for deep penetration
if you feel that a solid 158gr leadhead is better, get a semiwadcutter design; if you really want a 158gr lrn, then get CCI Blazer (aluminum cased) 158gr lrn...the lead is hardened and shaped more like a 9mm fmj bullet; this should offer you better penetration, but be aware of overpenetration; be sure you don't have any precious things in front of or behind the walls in your house (especially loved ones) since a hardened lead round nose makes for deep penetration
I carried a S&W Mdl 10, well actually two different ones about 6 out of my 13 years of law enforcement. Practised monthly, no where near 68.000 rounds, with +P and never had any problems. Dump the RNL downrange and never use them for pesonal defense again. As previously stated, if you are still uncomfortable with +P at least use a semi-wadcutter or wadcutter.
oneiron
Member
I don't think the +P+ is magnum ammo. I used them in my 38 Special Charter Arms Undercover for years. I did not like them because they just did not have the killing power I needed. That is why I purchased a 44 Special last year. My next revolver is going to be a 454. When I shoot something I want to kill it.
Jim March
Member
Yes, that's what actually happened. Police agencies wanted magnum-class power without having to admit they were using magnums. Federal, Winchester and others went along.
I've seen velocity data for some early Winchester 110gr JHP 38+P+ from the late '70s that clocked over 1,300fps from a 2.5" 357 snubbie. That's enough pressure to destroy many 38Spl small-frame revolvers in just a handful of shots.
Somewhere on the forums somebody wrote in on their experiences as a cop in that era. They wanted to use their personal snubbie as a backup. The police rangemaster/armorer made them use the standard 38+P+ duty ammo in it and snickered as it shot the gun loose across a single qualification session.
On the stand: "Oh no Mr. opposition lawyer, we don't use evil baby-killing MAGNUM ammo...we use nice normal 38Spl like cops have used for 100 years"...yeah RIGHT.
This really happened, folks. Be REAL careful with 38+P+.
Warren
Member
I just picked up a box of Rem 125 gr .38 spl + P SJHPs.
I'm hoping they are accurate and controllable.
I'm hoping they are accurate and controllable.
papajohn
Member
Warren, I'm sure they'll be a good choice. Remington makes good, quality ammo, and that bullet weight is a good choice for a smallish gun. Accuracy is mostly a function of the shooter, but controllability in rapid fire is better with bullets UNDER 158 grains. I think you made a good choice.
PJ
PJ
un_lucky
Member
I normaly just read but was compelled to post about magtech ammo. I just moved and don't have my reloading gear set up so I went out and purchased about $150 worth a magtech 158grn lrn 38s and also tried 40 rnds of there gold line of sd ammo. I am very disapointed I end up with a ftf about every 10 rnds in the lrn and had 1 ftf in 20rnds of golden stuff. This is from 2 revolvers and eventually a contender. I ended up putting the missfired rounds from the first two boxes and all the rounds from the remaining in the contender they all eventually went off but some took as many a 9 tries (most took 2).
Elm Creek Smith
Member
Back in the '50's and early '60's, Winchester-Western loaded the .38 Special Super Police with a 200 grain RNL bullet at about 700-600 fps. This was in the days before hollow-points and +P pressure loads. They had a reputation as good stoppers from a 4 inch or longer barrel. Interestingly, they were just barely stabilized due to their heavy weight and almost always tumbled after impact. That might be where they got their "stopping power."
ECS
ECS
Cosmoline:
1. "?? Are you talking about .38 Specials or .38 S&W. I don't believe anyone has been shot by a 200 grain .38 SPECIAL, because that load is extremely exotic. OTOH the .38-200 load of the S&W was used all over the world."
2. "At any rate, a 148 or 158 grain SPECIAL will NOT bounce off an appliance unless it's seriously downloaded. The S&W might."
1) The shooting I mentioned was with factory .38 Special 200 gr. LRN. This used to be a very common factory loading back in the day. Hardly exotic and carried by many U.S. police agencies for decades. They were NOT the British-based .38-200 load. I shot thousands of both through various K-Frames back in the 70's.
I examined weapon, ammo, and ammo box at the scene. Definitely not .38 S&W nor .38-200.
2) Re: 148 gr .38 Special WADCUTTERS (flat face target loads with bullet flush to case mouth). I wouldn't expect a 158 gr bullet to bounce off either (nor did I say it would). Bounced hundreds of 148 LWCs off of described targets many times. They would dent the sheet metal pretty good, but wouldn't penetrate. The lead rounds would generally mushroom to a huge diameter. Yes, I guess you could say downloaded (compared to duty ammo). I never came across any LWC rounds that weren't downloaded. Their only purpose was to provide low cost, low recoil target practice and cut perfect little circles through bullseye targets. Not so good against VWs or Kenmores.
1. "?? Are you talking about .38 Specials or .38 S&W. I don't believe anyone has been shot by a 200 grain .38 SPECIAL, because that load is extremely exotic. OTOH the .38-200 load of the S&W was used all over the world."
2. "At any rate, a 148 or 158 grain SPECIAL will NOT bounce off an appliance unless it's seriously downloaded. The S&W might."
1) The shooting I mentioned was with factory .38 Special 200 gr. LRN. This used to be a very common factory loading back in the day. Hardly exotic and carried by many U.S. police agencies for decades. They were NOT the British-based .38-200 load. I shot thousands of both through various K-Frames back in the 70's.
I examined weapon, ammo, and ammo box at the scene. Definitely not .38 S&W nor .38-200.
2) Re: 148 gr .38 Special WADCUTTERS (flat face target loads with bullet flush to case mouth). I wouldn't expect a 158 gr bullet to bounce off either (nor did I say it would). Bounced hundreds of 148 LWCs off of described targets many times. They would dent the sheet metal pretty good, but wouldn't penetrate. The lead rounds would generally mushroom to a huge diameter. Yes, I guess you could say downloaded (compared to duty ammo). I never came across any LWC rounds that weren't downloaded. Their only purpose was to provide low cost, low recoil target practice and cut perfect little circles through bullseye targets. Not so good against VWs or Kenmores.
easyrider604
Member
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2008
- Messages
- 735
gb6491, I'm not a golf fan, but...
using a snubbie instead of clubs? Now that I can relate to. After all, there are bowling pin matches as well.
How far did the ball go? Instead of lugging a heavy golf bag, we just need a holster and a 100-round case-guard. Do you have to use reduced loads for putting, primer-only perhaps?
using a snubbie instead of clubs? Now that I can relate to. After all, there are bowling pin matches as well.
How far did the ball go? Instead of lugging a heavy golf bag, we just need a holster and a 100-round case-guard. Do you have to use reduced loads for putting, primer-only perhaps?
MCgunner
Member
The old lead round nose gave .38 special a bad name. Fortunately, there are better loads that have giving it a good reputation.
BattleChimp Potemkin
Member
Not to be divergent, but I love the old 200 gr. loads. Im an old revolver nut, like the idea of revolver fighting, not just revolver defense or revolver shooting. Where can I find just 200gr. LRN for .38? All I can find is gas checked expensive stuff for .357.
This is for handloading of course
This is for handloading of course
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Battle Chimp, they don't make the 200 grain any more. I liked them also but now you would have to reload to get them. I have two rounds of Remington 200. You won't find them anywhere, fractories stopped making them was back in the seventies. There is a company that has cast 200 or 195 but for the life of me I can't remember who.
HungSquirrel
Member
T.R.
Member
I heard that 158 grain flat nosed semi-wadcutters have taken down a lot of bad guys.
TR
TR
papajohn
Member
I think the best option for non-+P loads is still the FBI load, aka the Metro load, aka the Chicago PD load. A 158-grain hollow-point at about 850 fps, not the cleanest shooting load but if you point it right, you only need a couple of them. The Federal Nyclads were made to duplicate it, without all the airborne lead. Why they ever discontinued that ammo is beyond me, maybe they'll bring it back in a limited run for all those who carry 38's!
PJ
PJ
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