38 Special sticking cases

[vaalpens]

I understand that sticking cases can be a sign of to high a pressure.

So my question is; If I experience sticking cases when I try and extract them, could there be any other reason outside of pressure that will prevent the case from just dropping out?

The sticking cases is only happening with one of my loads. This load is below the maximum, and I have worked up loads before, past the current load.

Following are the chrono results from when I initially worked up the load:

SP101, 38spl+P, 3"
COL: 1.475"
MBC, 158gr, B18HTSWC, Unique, 4.7gr, WSP
Average: 844
ES: 79
SD: 30.2
Force: 250
PF: 133
Velocities: 854, 795, 874, 839, 859

SP101, 38spl+P, 3"
COL: 1.475"
MBC, 158gr, B18HTSWC, Unique, 4.8gr, WSP
Average: 857
ES: 27
SD: 11.4
Force: 258
PF: 135
Velocities: 854, 865, 849, 874, 847

SP101, 38spl+P, 3"
COL: 1.475"
MBC, 158gr, B18HTSWC, Unique, 4.9gr, WSP
Average: 892
ES: 22
SD: 9.6
Force: 279
PF: 140
Velocities: 881, 903, 900, 893, 884

SP101, 38spl+P, 3"
COL: 1.475"
MBC, 158gr, B18HTSWC, Unique, 5.0gr, WSP
Average: 900
ES: 49
SD: 18.6
Force: 284
PF: 142
Velocities: 890, 927, 908, 878, 897

SP101, 38spl+P, 3"
COL: 1.475"
MBC, 158gr, B18HTSWC, Unique, 5.1gr, WSP
Average: 921
ES: 49
SD: 22.4
Force: 298
PF: 145
Velocities: 897, 931, 899, 936, 946

SP101, 38spl+P, 3"
COL: 1.475"
MBC, 158gr, B18HTSWC, Unique, 5.2gr, WSP
Average: 930
ES: 46
SD: 17.4
Force: 303
PF: 146
Velocities: 936, 924, 912, 958, 924

The load in question is the 4.9gr of Unique.

I have pulled one of the bullets and verified the bullet weight and powder weight. The bullet came in just below 158gr, and the powder weighed in at 4.6gr. With the kinetic puller a few kernels came out during the pulling, and normally a few gets stuck in the sponge inside the hammer. I am very confident that these were all loaded to very close to 4.9gr Unique.

The load data from Alliant I used is the following:

38 Special +P	158 gr Speer LSWC	Speer	1.44	6	CCI 500	Unique	5.2	919

Any help or suggestions will be appreciate as always.

 

[fireman 9731]

Dirty cases or cylinder chambers can cause stiff extraction too. And by stiff, do you mean, they don't fall out on their own? Or you have to push the ejector rod? Or do you have to forcefully beat the cases out?

 

[mdi]

Yep dirty chambers and dirty brass. Some cylinders may be "rough" and make extraction tight, but to echo fireman 9731's post, how hard is "sticking" brass to remove?

 

[vaalpens]

Dirty cases or cylinder chambers can cause stiff extraction too. And by stiff, do you mean, they don't fall out on their own? Or you have to push the ejector rod? Or do you have to forcefully beat the cases out?

fireman 9731, thanks for your response.

The cylinder chambers were clean and I was shooting other 357mag and 38special rounds, and none were sticking. I have also experienced this on the last two shooting trips.

I don't have to forcefully beat the cases out, but I do feel the resistance on the ejector rod when I try and get them out.

I did measure the case and the cases that stick is around .380" diameter where the other cases are around .377" diameter.

 

[vaalpens]

Yep dirty chambers and dirty brass. Some cylinders may be "rough" and make extraction tight, but to echo fireman 9731's post, how hard is "sticking" brass to remove?

mdi, thanks for the comments.

It was definitely not dirty brass or dirty chambers. It could just be that this is normal for this load and I shouldn't be concerned about it.

These cases are all the same headstamp, CBC, so I will probably load up a few with a different headstamp, same load an see if it is the brass. I will also work up some 38special loads with a different powder and around the same velocity and see if I get the same stickiness.

 

[fireman 9731]

Is it all of the same brass? Different head stamps/lots can behave differently.

But then again, you have exceeded standard pressure loads and are well into +P range, if not +P+ range.

To me, that would be a sign to back off a tad. Even if the higher charge weights didn't present sticky cases.

 

[Robert101]

If the lower grain loads don't present sticky cases. Then I would back off my load.

 

[vaalpens]

Is it all of the same brass? Different head stamps/lots can behave differently.

But then again, you have exceeded standard pressure loads and are well into +P range, if not +P+ range.

To me, that would be a sign to back off a tad. Even if the higher charge weights didn't present sticky cases.

fireman 9731, thanks.

It was all the same brass/headstamp, CBC.

I will probably work up the load again and see when it starts to stick a bit. I did not make any notes when I did my load workup, so it is strange that it is sticking now. It will be better for me to be cautious at this time.

 

[vaalpens]

If the lower grain loads don't present sticky cases. Then I would back off my load.

Robert101, thanks for the suggestion.

My problem is that I did not document that I felt any sticking brass when I was working up the loads, but I will probably work up the load again and make sure this time I document the extraction of the cases.

 

[Bullseye]

What did your primers look like? I had some .357 reloads ( by somebody else ) that plopped right into the cylinder with ease but were stuck in the cylinder after firing. The primers were flattened out and raised. I only tried a few shots and bought a puller tool.
140 some pulled. I could not identify the powder in them. They were the only time I had this problem.
I re sized without the depriming pin and loaded up my usual load of Unique and all is well.

I see you are listing 38spl as +P above with loads of Unique and 158 gr bullets at what I would understand is under +P.
I start seeing +P ratings at or around 5.1 Unique under 158 gr bullets.

Coincidentally, I loaded 50 RMR plated HP today at 5.0-5.1 and 10 JHP with 5.1 158 gr bullets. That is the highest amount I have loaded so far but they'll go through a Ruger SP101 or Service Six or Blackhawk without a hitch I bet.
My usual load is 4.8 gr Unique 158 gr. I have no idea how fast they go but your info above is very helpful. Thanks

 

[Steve C]

A load of 5.2grs Unique behind a 158g LSWC is a max +P load according to the Speer No 13 manual but the Speer bullets are a soft swagged bullet. In any case I've loaded at this level and years ago at 5.5grs with the manuals in the early 70's listed 6.0grs as maximum with 158gr lead bullets. The pressure level will be at .38 spl +P and well below anything that would give you sticky cases from pressure. I would suggest that since you are loadeing 18bnh bullets that will not obdurate unless pushed at higher mag pressures that you are getting leading in front of the cylinder throats and if there is any stickiness its fron the leading and powder residue rather than pressure.

Another possible cause of case stickiness could be soft brass. This would not occur with normal brass made in the US but may if you happen to be using some odd soft foreign brass that will grab in the chamber with little pressure. I haven't run across any for a long time since buying some Herters .38 spl brass imported from Australia when the company when it was in business in the early 70's. The case wall was paper thin and would crack after a few loadings.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

IMO you would have to load well into the .357 Magnum pressure range or above before your .38 Special brass would expand enough to stick. I have a feeling you might have a carbon ring inside the cylinders causing the sticking feeling since you said you are firing .38s in a .357 Magnum revolver.

 

[vaalpens]

IMO you would have to load well into the .357 Magnum pressure range or above before your .38 Special brass would expand enough to stick. I have a feeling you might have a carbon ring inside the cylinders causing the sticking feeling since you said you are firing .38s in a .357 Magnum revolver.

ArchAngelCD, thanks for your evaluation.

I have shot both 357mag and 38 special rounds after the cases were sticking, and all of them just dropped out. I don't think it is due to any carbon ring.

I did measure the case and the cases that stick is around .380" diameter where the other cases are around .377" diameter.

The cases that was sticking definitely expanded more.

 

[eldon519]

One thing you could try is cleaning the cylinder and wiping down the brass and then try putting that fired brass back into the cylinder. If it is just gunk they shouldn't stick anymore. If it is over-expanded brass, it should still stick.

 

[buck460XVR]

While flattened primers in a revolver are no indication of high pressure, generally sticky extraction is, especially when other ammo empties drop right out. As others have said other reasons would be dirty brass(lube left on) or dirty chambers. Could be a combination of pressure, rough chambers(Ruger?)/dirty chambers/tight chambers/tight throats and dirty brass. Could be your scale is off a tad(Check weights?). Could be the brass itself. Whatever the combination, your gun does not like it. That indicates to me a change or further load development. How my empties extract are part of any load development for my revolvers. The minute they start to stick, I take notice.

 

[vaalpens]

A load of 5.2grs Unique behind a 158g LSWC is a max +P load according to the Speer No 13 manual but the Speer bullets are a soft swagged bullet. In any case I've loaded at this level and years ago at 5.5grs with the manuals in the early 70's listed 6.0grs as maximum with 158gr lead bullets. The pressure level will be at .38 spl +P and well below anything that would give you sticky cases from pressure. I would suggest that since you are loadeing 18bnh bullets that will not obdurate unless pushed at higher mag pressures that you are getting leading in front of the cylinder throats and if there is any stickiness its fron the leading and powder residue rather than pressure.

Another possible cause of case stickiness could be soft brass. This would not occur with normal brass made in the US but may if you happen to be using some odd soft foreign brass that will grab in the chamber with little pressure. I haven't run across any for a long time since buying some Herters .38 spl brass imported from Australia when the company when it was in business in the early 70's. The case wall was paper thin and would crack after a few loadings.

Steve C, thanks for your evaluation of what the issue could be. My feeling is that you are on to something regarding the brass. I feel the load is within reasonable load data and the Ruger SP101 should be able to handle it without any issues. I have verified my scale, so I will probably load up a few loads using a different headstamp and see if I see the same issue.

 

[vaalpens]

What did your primers look like? I had some .357 reloads ( by somebody else ) that plopped right into the cylinder with ease but were stuck in the cylinder after firing. The primers were flattened out and raised. I only tried a few shots and bought a puller tool.
140 some pulled. I could not identify the powder in them. They were the only time I had this problem.
I re sized without the depriming pin and loaded up my usual load of Unique and all is well.

I see you are listing 38spl as +P above with loads of Unique and 158 gr bullets at what I would understand is under +P.
I start seeing +P ratings at or around 5.1 Unique under 158 gr bullets.

Coincidentally, I loaded 50 RMR plated HP today at 5.0-5.1 and 10 JHP with 5.1 158 gr bullets. That is the highest amount I have loaded so far but they'll go through a Ruger SP101 or Service Six or Blackhawk without a hitch I bet.
My usual load is 4.8 gr Unique 158 gr. I have no idea how fast they go but your info above is very helpful. Thanks

sigsmoker, thanks for the assessment. I also think my load is definitely within reasonable load data. I have verified the powder charge and I am confident it is not dirty brass or dirty chambers. The +P rating is from Alliant where they show the following:

38 Special	158 gr Speer LSWC	Speer	1.44	6	CCI 500	Unique	4.7	815	
38 Special +P	158 gr Speer LSWC	Speer	1.44	6	CCI 500	Unique	5.2	919

So it looks over 4.7gr is the start of +P.

 

[vaalpens]

One thing you could try is cleaning the cylinder and wiping down the brass and then try putting that fired brass back into the cylinder. If it is just gunk they shouldn't stick anymore. If it is over-expanded brass, it should still stick.

eldon519, thanks for the advice.

I have not processed my brass yet after the shoot, so i will definitely test it in the cylinder once I cleaned the SP101.

 

[vaalpens]

While flattened primers in a revolver are no indication of high pressure, generally sticky extraction is, especially when other ammo empties drop right out. As others have said other reasons would be dirty brass(lube left on) or dirty chambers. Could be a combination of pressure, rough chambers(Ruger?)/dirty chambers/tight chambers/tight throats and dirty brass. Could be your scale is off a tad(Check weights?). Could be the brass itself. Whatever the combination, your gun does not like it. That indicates to me a change or further load development. How my empties extract are part of any load development for my revolvers. The minute they start to stick, I take notice.

buck460XVR, thanks for the advice.

The primers look good and I know my gun and brass was clean going in. With my last shoot I actually tested these rounds before I tested anything else just to see what I get when the temperatures were low, and everything was still clean.

With all the advice I have received so far, it seems the issue is either the specific headstamp brass, or over pressure.

The feel of how the empties are extracted will definitely be part of my load development going forward.

 

[Bullseye]

So it looks over 4.7gr is the start of +P

Aha ... looking at it that way, it appears you are correct. Thank you.
I am in the +P range too.

My Lyman 49 book puts it a different way with min and max. I have no info for a 158 gr. cast bullet so 155 gr. is the closest I can get a +P number.
Here's pics of 158 gr. JHP and cast bullet loads with Unique data.

Hope you figure it out. The cases that got stuck for me seem to be fine resized and reloaded. Even tho they are .357, the problem sounded the same. My problem was the powder.

 

[TimSr]

I gather you are shooting these loads in a .357 magnum, in which case there is zero chance that these are over pressure. I shoot MBC 158gr SWC over 8.0 gr Unique all the time as a standard practice load. (in .357 cases) Your loads are in the +P range of 38 special scaled down to Speer's super soft bullets. I've also fired a million of those loads in a variety of .38 cases.

The brass you are using is the only thing that stands out to me as something I haven't used. I'd try it in some other cases, but either way, I don't think you really have a sticky extraction problem, just one brand of case that requires a little more push to drop the cases out. Would these happen to be coated bullets? I've not used those, and can't speak as to what that coating leaves behind when those are fired.

 

[vaalpens]

I gather you are shooting these loads in a .357 magnum, in which case there is zero chance that these are over pressure. I shoot MBC 158gr SWC over 8.0 gr Unique all the time as a standard practice load. (in .357 cases) Your loads are in the +P range of 38 special scaled down to Speer's super soft bullets. I've also fired a million of those loads in a variety of .38 cases.

The brass you are using is the only thing that stands out to me as something I haven't used. I'd try it in some other cases, but either way, I don't think you really have a sticky extraction problem, just one brand of case that requires a little more push to drop the cases out. Would these happen to be coated bullets? I've not used those, and can't speak as to what that coating leaves behind when those are fired.

TimSr, thank for putting my mind a bit as ease.

I have checked everything and I know the charges I throw is correct. I also know other cases did not stick, so it is not a dirty chamber issue.

Yes I am shooting coated bullets, but most of what I shot was coated, without any issues.

I am also leaning towards the specific CBC headstamp, but will have to confirm it. I am planning to load a few more this load, but selecting different headstamps and then verify the extraction and also measure the diameter of the case when I take it out. It would be interesting to see the results I get.

I am shooting these out of a 357mag Ruger SP101.

 

[jim8115]

I had a SP101 , almost every load i shot had sticky extraction. Same loads would fall right out of our GP100 or M28.........

 

[vaalpens]

I had a SP101 , almost every load i shot had sticky extraction. Same loads would fall right out of our GP100 or M28.........

Thanks jim8115. Did you ever figure our why most loads were sticking during extraction?

 

[splattergun]

TimSr, thank for putting my mind a bit as ease.

I have checked everything and I know the charges I throw is correct. I also know other cases did not stick, so it is not a dirty chamber issue.

Yes I am shooting coated bullets, but most of what I shot was coated, without any issues.

I am also leaning towards the specific CBC headstamp, but will have to confirm it. I am planning to load a few more this load, but selecting different headstamps and then verify the extraction and also measure the diameter of the case when I take it out. It would be interesting to see the results I get.

I am shooting these out of a 357mag Ruger SP101.

I'm interested in this thread, as I am new to .38/357, with a new SP101 3" in the safe. The few reloads I've shot from mine so far have not given me any stickiness. I've loaded Federal and RP headstamps so far.

Since you mentioned that CBC is the only headstamp that you're experiencing the stickiness with, that seems to be the likely variable to change in order to trouble shoot. I'm looking forward to your results.