.38 Spl Ammo Questions: Standard vs +P

[CraigAPS]

So, I have a RIA M206 snub. I'm looking (like most people) for cheap range ammo. I really like the 158gr ammo that I've shot over the 130gr stuff I've been using (mostly due to a couple bulk deals at my LGS and a Big Box place). Those sales are off, and I'm looking for decent priced range ammo. I've found some 158gr SWC at Freedom Munitions (FM) that's $.25 a round. I was looking at getting some. My only hesitation stems from the muzzle velocity (MV) reported on FM's site. The MV is 870 fps on these SWC and the stuff I've been using (Remington or WWB) ranges from 755 fps - 800fps. I'm worried about it damaging my pistol. This snub is, according to Armscor Customer Service, "rated for +P ammo, [but they] suggest you do not use the +P all the time." So, after that huge intro, my question is: What can I tell, if anything, based on MV? The MV ranges on standard .38 spl from ~700-900fps, while +P is ~800-1250fps (this info is from Ballistics 101). So, should I go with the idea that if it isn't sold as +P specifically, then it's standard or should I look for something else more in line with the MVs I've been shooting? I do have an email into FM's customer service as to whether or not the SWCs are considered +P or not, but have yet to hear back from them. Thanks for any help with this decision.

 

[buck460XVR]

I myself would not consider it +p, but a stout standard load. Odds are it may not be as pleasant to shoot as your previous ammo. My suggestion is the same to anyone looking to buy ammo, don't buy a truckload until you try some and see if you and your gun like it.

 

[Gary A]

The website gives no indication of the test barrel length. Some manufacturers have used long test barrels (like over 8 inches) which inflate velocity figures over using standard 4 inch vented test barrels. If a 4 inch barrel was used the load is stout (plus P 158s usually spec at 890 fps). If it was a very long barrel, the load might be a normal 755 fos from a four inch. The less information a manufacturer provides, the more suspect they are, in my opinion.

 

[1KPerDay]

Short answer is you can't tell what's +P purely by velocity.

 

[Shaky]

Realistically the only way we have to determine whether the ammo is "+p" or not is to take the manufacturer's word for it. There are just too many factors that determine the final velocity of a particular round to use that as a gauge (shy of a 38 pushing a 180 grain at 1200 fps or something ridiculous). Generally a lead bullet can be pushed faster than a jacketed bullet of the same weight. Two identical bullets loaded at different depths in the case will have different pressure to charge weight ratios. I've never purchased from freedom munitions but a quick search should give an idea of their reputation.

 

[CraigAPS]

don't buy a truckload until you try some and see if you and your gun like it

I'm probably thinking too much with my wallet. I see a good deal and I kind of want to jump on it.

Short answer is you can't tell what's +P purely by velocity.

Realistically the only way we have to determine whether the ammo is "+p" or not is to take the manufacturer's word for it. There are just too many factors that determine the final velocity of a particular round to use that as a gauge (shy of a 38 pushing a 180 grain at 1200 fps or something ridiculous). Generally a lead bullet can be pushed faster than a jacketed bullet of the same weight. Two identical bullets loaded at different depths in the case will have different pressure to charge weight ratios.

These are both things I'm currently just ignorant about. I know almost nothing about what makes one round different from another other than the obvious (bullet profile, SJ, J, and other differences based on appearance) or the fact that the loads differ in certain types of rounds.

I've never purchased from freedom munitions but a quick search should give an idea of their reputation.

I have searched in this forum and others and on various other shooting sites. Everything I've seen is positive.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Short answer is you can't tell what's +P purely by velocity.

Howdy

That is correct. Pressure is what defines +P 38 Special ammunition from standard 38 Special ammunition, not velocity.

The Maximum pressure for standard 38 Special is 17,000 PSI.

The Maximum pressure for 38 Special +P is 20,000 PSI.

Not really a whole lot if you consider that the Maximum pressure for 357 Magnum is 35,000 PSI.

Of course, with a lighter bullet a 38 standard pressure load will probably move a bit faster than the same load with a heavier bullet.

If you want to learn more about this, go to the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer's Institute (SAAMI) web sight.

Here is a link to their velocity and pressure data for common handgun cartridges. Note that the velocities listed are simply guidelines, it is the pressure data that sets the standards.

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/specifications/Velocity_Pressure_CfPR.pdf

 

[tkroenlein]

If you're comparing jacketed to lead, lead bullets go faster with less pressure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[CraigAPS]

Driftwood, thanks for the link. That's really informative! Are these the values for people who reload, manufacturers of name brand ammo, or both?

Tk, the rounds I stated I liked are 158gr LRN and the ones I'm thinking of getting are 158gr SWC. The SWC do appear to be jacketed. How does that affect things?

 

[MIL-DOT]

Just about the best deal around on standard velocity FMJ, target-grade .38 ammo (particularly if you're looking to buy just a few boxes at a time) is the Perfecta brand from Walmart. It's Italian made, brass cased, and the overwhelming consensus is that it's great stuff (me and my best shooting bud have used lots of Perfecta, in 9mm, 38, 357,and 45, and it's always been great).
When it's in stock (not always, but often), 50 rounds of .38 special runs about $15 (after tax, IIRC). That's by the box, and over-the-counter, and I don't think anything anyhwere beats that.
The next best deal I've seen, is on the (very good quality) German-made Geco from Sportsmanguide, assuming you use one of the free-shipping code they're always sending out.

 

[Steve C]

Muzzle velocity doesn't tell you much regarding the pressure of ammo unless you know a lot more information about the load and the testing protocol used. Any US SAAMI compliant manufacturer will indicate if the ammo they're selling is +P and if not labeled as such it will be standard pressure.

If you are worried about wearing out your gun by using +P ammo, buy US production by a major ammo manufacturer like Winchester, Remington, Federal, Speer/CCI, Hornady, that is not labeled +P. When you go cheap there are often no guarantees. I've talked to a few shooters over the years who have had their guns, some where rather expensive, KB'd or damaged by ammo from commercial loaders and re-manufacturers even from ones with good reputations in quality. Buy +P self defense ammo from the same sources.

For a handgun that's worth under $300 I wouldn't worry much about it. In a $600 + pistol maybe the cheapest loaded ammo isn't the way to go.

If you really want to save money on ammo, buy an inexpensive reloading set up, save and reload your brass.

Commercial re-manufacturers may or may not be members of SAAMI or comply with SAAMI standards. European ammo is regulated by the country or manufacture origin and the pressure standards are generally CIP [Commission Internationale Permanente] which has no ammunition designation equal to +P saying its higher pressure.

 

[CraigAPS]

I have been using Winchester and Remington ammo.

For a handgun that's worth under $300

While it's not a top of the line pistol, I still want to keep it in good condition as it's the only one I have at this point. Budget is definitely a concern, but, at the same time, I'd rather pay more for ammo and have a gun than be a cheapskate and NOT have one (especially if/when I need one!).

If you really want to save money on ammo, buy an inexpensive reloading set up, save and reload your brass.

While it does have a lifetime warranty, using remans or reloads voids that warranty. So, at this point, starting to reload is, unfortunately, not an option. Although, I am saving my brass.

 

[joem1945]

Reload and chronograph. Then you will know exactly what you have.

 

[Gary A]

It's certainly true that plus P is defined by pressure, not velocity. Still for a relatively new buyer to peruse manufacturer websites there are inconsistencies. For example Sellier and Bellot USA lists their standard pressure 158 grain fmj .38 special at 889 fps and their standard pressure 158 LRN at an eye-popping 997 fps both from 7.50 inch barrels. For years, the big 3 have listed 158 grain LSWCHP +P at 890 fps and standard pressure 158 LSWC at a sedate 755 fps but measured from only a 4.0 inch test barrel. Apples and oranges.

Freedom Munitions' website does not specify barrel length.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Get wadcutters.

You won't need "plus P" loads. A wadcutter will cookie cutter through the body, leaving a gaping wound. They are absolutely devastating.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Are these the values for people who reload, manufacturers of name brand ammo, or both?

Howdy Again

The pressure values are there for a couple of reasons.

1. To set a standard so that commercial ammunition manufacturers will not exceed the pressure limits that a firearm in good mechanical condition can withstand.

2. Experienced reloaders will always consult a reliable, published reloading manual, preferably one put out by a powder manufacturer. The loads published in the manual, for instance 5.5 grains of Whiz Bang under a 158 grain bullet, will have been tested in a pressure barrel by the powder company to make sure they do not exceed the published SAAMI pressures. Very few hand loaders have access to a pressure barrel, so anybody following the recipes in the reloading manual can rest assured that the recipe will not exceed SAMMI max pressure for the particular cartridge.

Reload and chronograph. Then you will know exactly what you have.

This will tell you the velocity, it will tell you nothing about pressure. There are of course signs of over pressure that experienced reloaders know to look for, such as flattened primers and a halo around the base of the case. Sticking to loads published by reputable sources, such as powder companies is the only way, short of investing in a pressure barrel and the required electronics, to know your reloaded ammunition falls within industry recognized standards.

 

[roaddog28]

Standard 38 special has been downgraded since 1970s. Most ammo companys have standard ammo at about 700 to 750 fps. Again sammi specs are 170,000 psi. Very weak ammo. Your revolver should not have a problem. There is no need to shoot +p for practice. Lots of choices.
Good luck
Howard

 

[CraigAPS]

For those who are curious, I spoke to a customer service rep from FM today. Apparently, they do not produce any +P ammo at this time. Not all that jazzed about the interaction (she seemed like she didn't care about answering my questions AT ALL and I'm kind of annoyed that after 3 days, I still haven't received a reply to my email), but at least I have my answer.

 

[olafhardtB]

In my past life I was an instrument engineer. I don't consider any of the methods we use to measure chamber pressure to be much more than Rube Goldburg devices which give us a number. ALL pressure readings are SWAG. But this is the best we have. There are none of these techniques that I trust to tell the difference between +P and non +P loads. There are so many cartridges, loads and components for 38 special. I just get plated or cast comercial 130 grain loads and shoot them. I like flat pointed solid bullets and usually just get Winchester USA whitebox 130 grain plated bullet cartridges. The purpose of a gun is to shoot things that need to be shot and a 38 will do this. Being shot has an adverse affect on living critters.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Standard 38 special has been downgraded since 1970s. Most ammo companys have standard ammo at about 700 to 750 fps. Again sammi specs are 170,000 psi. Very weak ammo. Your revolver should not have a problem. There is no need to shoot +p for practice. Lots of choices.
Good luck
Howard

Howdy Again

I know you did not do this intentionally, but SAAMI spec for 38 Special Max pressure is 17,000 psi, not 170,000 psi. 170,000 psi would probably blow up any revolver on the face of the Earth.

 

[CraigAPS]

SAAMI spec for 38 Special Max pressure is 17,000 psi, not 170,000 psi. 170,000 psi would probably blow up any revolver on the face of the Earth.

Haha. I bet it would!!! Just goes to show how little I know about ammo loads. I didn't even notice that seemed odd after looking at the link. All of the values were divided by 100 (so 17,000 psi would be 170 on the sheey, etc.).

 

[SeanSw]

I have used hundreds of Freedom Munition 158gr .38 special without issue. They may not be +P but they do not feel under loaded either. The recoil is certainly greater than any of the very wimpy 130gr fmj or ~750fps variety of RNL 158gr.

 

[Drail]

Properly placed a standard .38 Spl. is sufficient. If poorly placed it won't make any difference whether you are using standard OR +P loads. Take your time - get good hits.