.38 Super for protection

[WC145]

I looked at a Sig 220 in 38super today. Used but excellent , 4 mags, original box, papers, 600.00 out the door. Debating (German made and German proofed )

Buy it!! From what I understand it is a very rare gun and worth plenty more than $600, you can be certain you'd never lose money on it at that price.

 

[maxxwilde]

ak-kev said:

Here's the Detonics in .38Super. Once proofed, it will be put into the winter carry rotation.

Very nice gun! I'm drooling. Question for ya. Why's the rear sight so far forward on the slide? I would think with a smaller gun you'd want as much sight radius as you could get...


M

 

[doubs43]

Well, that explains it. The "blackpowder", higher energy loading had been dropped for two years before the "Super .38" was introduced, making the then "new" cartridge THE most powerful. Six years later, the .357 Magnum stole the title.

You ASSUME that the loading was dropped after 1927. No doubt, it was but the question is: exactly when?

It was claimed, erroneously, that black powder .45 Colt factory loads were gone by the 1920's. I proved that they were still available at least as late as 1927.

Now YOU claim the load was dropped in 1927. Can you prove that or are you simply guessing?

 

[tipoc]

The claim that the Super was the most powerful load in terms of energy and velocity figures that could be fired from a semi auto up till the 10mm (unless the Wildly was out a bit before the 10mm) is a true one even if it don't mean much in the real world.

Whether or not it beat out the old Colt load is questionable and also beside the point. The Super held that title back then and in terms of handgun loads it was true for a few years till the .357 Mag was introduced. Of course technically the Super may not have beaten some loads of the .38 Special Hi Velocity Police. These were heavy loads developed for the 38/44 Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman S&W guns which lead to the .357. The title of "Most powerful" was given the Super by Colt ad men and gunwriters during the 30s whether strictly true at the moment applied was beside the point to most such folks.

Julian Hatcher was quite fond of the Super. He considered it to have less stopping power than the .45 acp but to be a better round at longer distances than the .45.

The .38 Super was never as powerful as the .357 but in some loads it comes close, particularly the defensive loads.

The only Mexican made ammo widely available for the Super in the U.S. is Aguila. They have I believe 2 loads for it one a 130 gr. ball load and the other a JHP load. They can be found on the net and at gunshows.

Cor-Bons loads are good ones. They can show signs of high pressure which is due to the powder Cor Bon insists on using. The velocities they obtain with those weight bullets are reachable without signs of high pressure with the right powders.

tipoc

 

[doubs43]

The claim that the Super was the most powerful load in terms of energy and velocity figures that could be fired from a semi auto up till the 10mm (unless the Wildly was out a bit before the 10mm) is a true one even if it don't mean much in the real world.

That's a point I've never contested. Indeed, I said as much myself earlier in this thread. However, some have taken it to mean that the .38 Super was the most powerful factory Handgun load available until the .357 Magnum came along and that isn't true.

A lot of the old gun writers liked the .38 Super (I've already mentioned Nonte) but often lamented it's marginal accuracy resulting from headspacing on the case's small semi-rim. Newer guns have corrected that problem by headspacing on the case mouth like other semi-auto rounds with straight or tapered cases.

Other than the one - admittedly minor - point, your other information is excellent and well worth reading. It's not often that I disagree with you.

Anyway, I've had my say and people can believe whatever they want.

 

[tipoc]

Heck sometimes I disagree with myself. No I believe you are correct. The claim for the Super being the most powerful handgun load from 29 till the .357 Magnum showed up was always a bit murky and based on ignoring the older loads for the .45 Colt and maybe even some loads for the 44-40. It was also based on energy and velocity figures alone. That is ft. pds. of energy.

If we look at the old loads for the 38/44 Heavy Duty (the hot .38 Spl. predecessor to the .357) factory ammo claimed 1200 or so fps from a 7 1/2" barrel with a 158 gr. bullet or a bit more or less. This was in Super territory from a 5" barrel. S&W marketed it to police and the same market Colt aimed at with the Super.

Doug Sheldon has a good book out on the .38 Super. In it he reprints an article by Julian Hatcher from the early 1930s praising the accuracy and power of the Super. The Super became a more consistantly accurate round once it was headspced on the case mouth rather than the semi-rim. This change Colt did in the late 80s. Other custom makers did it earlier. But I'm not so sure it was an inaccurate round from the beginning it just wasn't as accurate as it could be.

tipoc

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Doubs43, you must be a real .45 Colt fan. When the changeover from blackpowder to smokeless in the .45 Colt occurred, we'll probably never know. Along with the changeover, somewhere, they discontinued using balloon head cases, thus reducing the capacity of the .45 Colt case. This has made loading it to the same potential WITH black powder not an easy task for the cowboy/blackpowder shooters. I like to think that somewhere, between 1927 and 1929, the .45 Colt lost some pizazz, and the advertising claims by Colt that the new Super .38 had, indeed, some basis. Can you prove that those claims were false? Probably no more than I can prove it to be true. But, I can say, I really don't care one way or the other. I just like the Super .38, and oh, I like the .45 Colt, too!

 

[doubs43]

Tipoc, I'd like to read Sheldon's book but a search on abebooks shows them priced at $6 ~ $95 plus shipping. Hatcher, BTW, was an excellent writer as well as an extremely knowledgeable gun man with great practical experience. His engineering background and his military assignments gave him access to information that wasn't always available to others. IMO, "Hatcher's Notebook" is one of the best gun books ever written by anyone.

SDM, I'm more of a .45ACP fan than I am a .45 Colt man. I own one 7 1/2 inch barrel SAA revolver made by Armi San Marco; an exact copy of the 1873 Cavalry issue revolver. I have arthritis in my hands and the recoil causes the backstrap of the trigger guard to smack the knuckle of my middle finger and every shot hurts like hell. OTOH, I can shoot a 1911 all day without any pain at all. One of my 1911's is convertible from .45ACP to .38 Super. My conversion kit includes a Colt Series 80 slide with adjustable Bomar rear sight and a BarSto custom barrel and bushing. I can also change to 4 other calibers for a total of six on the same frame. The work was done years ago by Ed Banks who is no longer with us.

 

[ak-kev]

maxx wrote: "Very nice gun! I'm drooling. Question for ya. Why's the rear sight so far forward on the slide? I would think with a smaller gun you'd want as much sight radius as you could get..."


Thank you for the kind words. Detonics designed their Combat Masters to be carried with one in the chamber, and hammer down. By moving the rear sight forward, it allowed one to draw the weapon and cock the hammer easily with just a quick sweep of the thumb (because the rear sight was out of the way and the rear of the slide was scalloped). But for me, its just about the "cool factor" Its just a novelty to me. Kevin.

 

[tipoc]

On the Detonics; you'll find that the sight radius is about the same on a J frame snubby as on the Detonics. Given the purpose of both this ain't a bad thing.

tipoc

 

[belus]

Very nice gun! I'm drooling. Question for ya. Why's the rear sight so far forward on the slide? I would think with a smaller gun you'd want as much sight radius as you could get...

Thank you for the kind words. Detonics designed their Combat Masters to be carried with one in the chamber, and hammer down. By moving the rear sight forward, it allowed one to draw the weapon and cock the hammer easily with just a quick sweep of the thumb (because the rear sight was out of the way and the rear of the slide was scalloped). But for me, its just about the "cool factor" Its just a novelty to me. Kevin.

I had also always wondered about this. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Kleanbore]

no tso sure

...that .45 Colt factory loads really were more powerful "back in the day". Yeah, you can find wiki statements, but you can find contradictory information, also.

From gunsandammomag.com:

The .45 Colt was adopted by the United States military in 1873 to be partnered with the now-legendary Colt Single Action Army revolver. As originally issued, the centerfire cartridge had a case length of 1.29 inches and fired a 255-grain lead bullet backed by 40 grains of black powder, producing a muzzle velocity of some 810 fps for a muzzle energy of around 380 ft.-lbs.

From reloadbench.com:

Originally loaded with a 255 grain lead bullet pushed out the muzzle at 810 fps by 40 grains of black powder, the big cartridge generated a then impressive muzzle energy of 378 foot pounds. Today, Colt's .45 caliber cartridge is loaded with smokeless powder to a nominal muzzle velocity of 855 fps with 250 and 255 grain bullets and a 225 grain bullet at 900 fps.

http://www.lycos.com/info/45--45-colt.html

In Sixguns, Elmer Keith said that the Remington BP load pushed a 250 grain bullet at 900 fps. That would fall short of the .38 Super.

And here's something interesting from Mike Venturino:

It is often written that the .45 Colt as loaded by the US Government contained a 40-grain powder charge. That indeed was tried but found too powerful for the wrought iron frames of early SAAs. A friend owns an original cartridge box of Frankford Arsenal .45 Colt loads dated January 1874. It is clearly marked as having a 30-grain powder charge. Later, in a reprint of an 1899 Winchester catalog is listed a load having 38 grains of black powder. That's the most powerful black powder .45 Colt commercial loading I've ever seen documented. None of this is to say some company at some time did not load a 40-grain charge, but the US Government issue ammunition was not so loaded.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_1_55/ai_n31006406/pg_2/?tag=content;col1

So, who's right?

And if the Colt .45 was in fact more powerful, why did Colt advertise otherwise?

For what it's worth, Elmer did say that if he were limited to factory loads, he would use a .45.

I believe that Elmer was using hot .44 Spl. loads before the .38 Super was introduced.

 

[doubs43]

And if the Colt .45 was in fact more powerful, why did Colt advertise otherwise?

One word: sales!

By 1929 the SAA revolver was selling poorly so Colt had little problem hawking the .38 Super with superlatives and hyperbole because it wasn't costing them sales elsewhere. Besides, what company brings out ANY product without claiming it's somehow superior to all that has gone before?

Colt was/is in business to make money and if stretching the truth a little sold guns then so be it.

Mike Ventureno needs to check the Hatcher book I referenced earlier. Remington offered a 40 grain BP load at LEAST as late as 1927 when the book was published.

 

[Kleanbore]

Mike Ventureno needs to check the Hatcher book I referenced earlier. Remington offered a 40 grain BP load at LEAST as late as 1927 when the book was published.

Ballistics?

 

[doubs43]

Ballistics?

That information has already been provided in this thread.

 

[Dr. Fresh]

I'd always heard that the Walker loaded with 60 grains of powder beat everything until .357 came out, including .45 Colt loads and .38 Super.

 

[maxxwilde]

ak-kev said:

Thank you for the kind words. Detonics designed their Combat Masters to be carried with one in the chamber, and hammer down. By moving the rear sight forward, it allowed one to draw the weapon and cock the hammer easily with just a quick sweep of the thumb (because the rear sight was out of the way and the rear of the slide was scalloped). But for me, its just about the "cool factor" Its just a novelty to me. Kevin.

Huh, I would have never even guessed that! Pretty kool idea when you think about it really...!


M

 

[tipoc]

The 10/09 issue of the American Rifleman notes that of the top 7 competitors in the 2009 Bianchi Cup 6 were shooting 1911s and one a Glock. Four of the 7 were shooting 38 Super.

tipoc

 

[Bullybrdr]

Does anyone have any experience with a Rock Island Armory 38 super? The ones that I have looked at in local shops seem to be pretty well made and the prices are very reasonable. I already have a Kimber and an Auto Ordnance in 45 acp and would like to add a 38 super to the collection.

 

[doubs43]

Bully, go here and search for .38 Super. Lots of information about the RIA .38 Supers.

http://forum.m1911.org/forumdisplay.php?f=17