.380 reloads not chambering in TCP

[rhoggman]

Ok so I started off making 50 rounds. First time I ever loaded .380.

OAL .970
3.0 gr Titegroup
93 gr LRN (messured several diameters =.355)

Using the Lee seatng die I put an ever so slight crimp to prevent the round being jammed down into the case during the operation of the pistol. I have had several different pocket .380s that all put smiley faces in the face of the bullet during normal operation.

These rounds chambered fine in my Bersa Thunder so I looked closer at what was happening in the TCP. What I found was the bullet was coming in contact the lands and grooves of the barrel. My crimp would not allow the bullet to jam into the cartridge which caused the gun not to returned to battery.

I shortened the OAL (3gr is not max) to .955 which kind of took care of the problem. I am afraid to go an shorter, but the bullet is still getting hung up in the lands and grooves. The extra space does allow the gun to fully seat the round.

Just out of curiosity I measured the diameter of some factory rounds I have sitting around and they all measured .353.

I was under the impression 9mm and .380 used the same diameter bullet??

 

[newfalguy101]

They do use the same bullet diameter, the difference is in the case length.

nominal bullet diameter is .355.

When you say Crimp, are you talking about a rollcrimp??

I hope not as the .380 headspaces on the case mouth.

I wonder.....if you did use a rollcrimp, if maybe you ever so slightly buckled the case, then when you re-seated the bullet deeper, the seater die ironed out the buldge.

It might be a good idea to invest in one of the Lee Factory Crimp Dies for your .380.

The only other thing I can think of,

Could the gun have been short chambered from the factory??

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

newfalguy right much nailed it. don't use the seating die to crimp any at all.
just bring the case mouth down to the slug.
use a VERY LIGHT Lee FC die crimp.
I've loaded .380acp for maybe 15 years, don't crimp any cast slugs much.
if you have a shaveing on the slug after seating expand a bit more and crimp a bit less.
this is for target/plinking loads.

 

[Walkalong]

What I found was the bullet was coming in contact the lands and grooves of the barrel. My crimp would not allow the bullet to jam into the cartridge which caused the gun not to returned to battery.

You have no choice but to go short enough that the bullet does not jam into the lands. Either that or change bullets. Back off the charge a couple of tenths. All the crimp you need is to remove the bell or a hair more. (.001 to .002 max) The FCD won't fix a round that is too long. Your seater will crimp just fine in .380. Learn how to load before resorting to trying squish the problem away. Seems like every time someone has a simple problem that can be fixed with an adjustment of the dies, someone suggests getting the magical FCD. Why not just tweak the dies.

A light taper crimp on a .45 ACP. Different caliber, but the principal is the same.

 

[rhoggman]

so technically it is not really crimped.... I just turn the die down on the case enough that the outside edge of the case mouth has a faint mark. Just enough to make sure the OAL is not affected during operation. If I do not do this the OAL will change about .02 just from the slide action.

just bring the case mouth down to the slug

Not sure what this means...

 

[rhoggman]

You have no choice but to go short enough that the bullet does not jam into the lands. Either that or change bullets. Back off the charge a couple of tenths. All the crimp you need is to remove the bell or a hair more. (.001 to .002 max) The FCD won't fix a round that is too long. Your seater will crimp just fine in .380. Learn how to load before resorting to trying squish the problem away. Seems like every time someone has a simple problem that can be fixed with an adjustment of the dies, someone suggests getting the magical FCD. Why not just tweak the dies.

This makes a lot of sense to me, and is what I thought I should do. I have been playing around with it a little. I may have to go all the way down to .930.... or I could just continue with what I have, and shoot em in the Bersa.

 

[rfwobbly]

Mr Oggman -
Walkalong gave you the right answer. The part of the chamber that holds the cartridge case is very nearly standard across the world, but the part that accepts the nose of the bullet is up to the manufacturer. They can bring the rifling back as far as they want, that means YOU the reloader have to reduce your OAL.

Important Lesson
The important lesson here is as a reloader DO NOT make 50 of anything until you make 1 or 2 test cartridges (no primer; no powder) and drop those into the naked barrel.



• You are correct, taper crimp only removes the "belling". Faint mark or not, you want the crimp to be ever so slightly less than the dimension (shown above as .379) mentioned in your reloading manual. 1 or 2 thou less is enough.

• You can correctly and conveniently do this in your seating die. To adjust the crimp dia simply move the body of the seating die up or down. (Another good reason to make test cartridges.) With Grade A lock rings you'll never need to touch that setting again.

• If you have loaded with a slower powder, then you could continue to reduce the OAL. However, TG is mighty unforgiving stuff. That's not a powder to trifle with, so shoot those in your Bersa, and work up a load in your TCP that will shoot in both.

All the best.

 

[newfalguy101]

Seems like every time someone has a simple problem that can be fixed with an adjustment of the dies, someone suggests getting the magical FCD. Why not just tweak the dies.

nothing magical about the FCD, BUT, it DOES size the entire case at the same time it crimps, which can make a huge difference on how well a handload feeds.

I was not a believer till I decided to try one for my 9MM handloads, I was suprised at how much difference it made in the smooth functioning of my guns.

 

[Walkalong]

BUT, it DOES size the entire case at the same time it crimps, which

can cause other problems.

Make them right in the first place and it isn't needed 99% of the time. Millions of rounds were loaded successfully before they were invented. Too many use it as a crutch, and it should not be the first thing suggested to a new reloader to "fix" a problem that can be solved by simple adjustments. That is doing a disservice to a new reloader IMHO.

 

[cfullgraf]

These rounds chambered fine in my Bersa Thunder so I looked closer at what was happening in the TCP. What I found was the bullet was coming in contact the lands and grooves of the barrel. My crimp would not allow the bullet to jam into the cartridge which caused the gun not to returned to battery.

Out of curiosity, do factory FMJs chamber in your TCP?

Does the shape of your lead bullet match the factory FMJ bullet?

 

[newfalguy101]

can cause other problems.

such as??

Perhaps I used improper terminology, it doesnt re-size in the same way a sizing die does.

 

[Felix1]

As someone who's been reloading several auto loader cartridges for 45 years, I agree in principle with the point Walkalong is making that it's certainly possible to produce quality reloads with well adjusted Dillon, RCBS, etc. dies which simply taper crimp the case. And that's what I do since I learned reloading long before the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp dies were available.

OTOH, the Lee Factory Crimper sure makes life a lot easier from a die set-up and auto loader reliability standpoint. In addition to the crimp function, the loaded round passes through a carbide sizer...which ensures it's dimensioned properly.

Again, a Lee die isn't a necessity but unless you have a readily accessible pistol range for reliability function testing as I do (100 yards from my backdoor), you can spend a lot of time making up small batches of testers and driving back and forth to a range and fiddling around trying to get it just right for total reliability. You can measure absolutely every case dimension with a caliper and they can be right on the money but .380 auto loaders are notoriously finicky about their taper crimps. You never know you've got it right on the money til you test 'em.

Bottom line, I don't begrudge anyone who chooses to use Lee dies. It sure simplifies their reloading life.

 

[Walkalong]

such as??

It can damage neck tension and squeeze bullets undersize. It all depends on the dimensions of the components and the carbide ring in your particular FCD.

That doesn't mean it always does damage, but I would much rather adjust dies to solve a small problem than just beat it into submission.

It should not be the first try to "fix" a problem, since 99% of the time it can be fixed by die adjustments.

What the FCD die is useful for is folks loading large quantities of ammo using lead bullets for IDPA etc where function is more important than extreme accuracy. By using the FCD they do not have to gauge every round to check it. A real time saver. It will catch the occasional fat bullet and/or thick case and squeeze it down so it will function and not jam.

Another factor is dimensional variances in the carbide rings. Make sure yours is not undersized.

I recommend and say good things about Lee dies all the time. My beef is more the misuse (IMHO of course) of the FCD die. If we believed some of the posts here, we might think the FCD could solve world hunger. rolleyes

It should not be the first thing one tries when ammo isn't working.

I don't begrudge anyone who chooses to use Lee dies.

Me either. I am just going to recommend other ways to really fix the problem, and not mask it.

 

[newfalguy101]

Fair enough.

For what its worth, I loaded thousands of rounds of 9MM before I ever got the FCD and got along pretty well, but, like you noted, the FCD catches the occasional round that is slightly out spec.

 

[kingmt]

I have a TCP that I load for. Use very light loads because there is no support for the cartage. My ramp goes well past the web. I don't know if this my be different for later built ones so check it out before loading up.

 

[EMC45]

I load .380 as well. And as with all other auto cartridges I load that head space on the case mouth I crimp just enough to iron out the "bell" of the case mouth. Feed like a champ!

 

[bayhawk2]

I load for the Ruger .380 LCP. Unique 2.9 gr.,Winchester Sm. Pistol
primer,95 gr. R.N. FMJ-.975 OAL. and yes I do crimp.-.370 case mouth diameter.
They shoot great and never a jam.

 

[rhoggman]

maybe my calipers are not accurate however, all the factory fmj & hp rounds measured (5 seperate brands) came out at .353 while my lead rounds came out at .355.

I had to seat the bullet at an oal of .930 before the rounds would seat properly in the tcp. keep in mind everything i loaded worked fine in a bersa thunder???

 

[wingman]

I load for my TCP using a FCD, also use the lee die on 45acp, 9mm and 40. I prefer to seat and crimp in different operations, I've loaded 40 plus years if a new tool comes along that works it is not sacrilegious to use that tool. The 380 is a small round very easy to crush or over expand mouth.