Dangit these .380 reloads will not chamber

[Gunman21]

Well after a head-splitting amount of research which was not enough, I've started to reload my first rounds. I'm loading .380 using a Hornady Lock-N-Load AP press with Hornady nitride 3 die set. For some reason the dummy rounds I made would not chamber in my LCP. The slide would not close all the way unless I pushed it closed and ejection required more muscle than usual. Upon further inspection the case seemed to be too fat where the bullet was seated. The bullets are Montana Gold HP and are the correct diameter when measured with calipers. The fat part of the case where the bullet is sat is .003 over spec. Do I need to clean the inside of the brass better? Is the seating and crimping die not crimping enough?

The brass I'm using is Fiocchi and has a roll crimp at the base of where the factory bullet was sat. IMO that's a strange place for a roll crimp but I'm still learning.

Help is very much appreciated as I would love to start shooting soon. I can post pictures tomorrow if the mystery is still unsolved.

 

[Randy1911]

It sounds like your problem is not enough crimp. Your crimp should be no more than 0.373. I personnally crimp to 0.371.

What you are calling a criimp below the bullet, is called a "cannalure". It is to prevent the bullet from pushing farther into the case.

 

[Balrog]

Are you sure you are sizing all the way down to the base of your cartridges? To me it sounds like your rounds are getting stuck near the case heads.

 

[ants]

As stated, it's not a roll crimp. It's a cannelure.

I suspect the problem is the cannelure ring. Fiocchi set it at the right depth for the particular bullet they used. You are using a longer bullet. When your bullet hits the cannelure, it bulges the case.

If your chamber and magazine can take a longer OAL, seat the bullets no deeper than the cannelure. See if that fits the mag and fits the chamber.

Next time, use cases without the cannelure OR save these cases for shorter bullets.

 

[Seedtick]

I wonder if you could take a reamer/drill/dremel/pocket knife?? and remove the raised ledge (bullet stop) from the inside of the brass.

Do you have any other brass that doesn't have that pesky bullet stop inside?

As hard as 380 brass is to come by presently, it's a shame that some brands have that feature. But then again I guess they aren't really concerned with it after it has been fired the first time. I hear there are people who only use brass one time.

ST

 

[joneb]

If the COL is correct for that bullet in the gun's chamber, and the case mouth bell has been removed I would find other brass to load.
I've loaded 9x18 Mak with Fiocchi brass w/o a case cannalure with good results but this brass is not my first choice.
I have not used a factory crimp die but it could be of some help for you ?

 

[JDGray]

Reread your post, and deleated mine

 

[Walkalong]

If the bullet you are using is seating deeper than the cannelure on the cases, there's your problem. You will need a bullet more like the factory one that does not seat past the cannelure.

Perhaps you can seat the bullet you have to just above the cannelure and it will still be short enough to chamber and function. You could try that.

Another option is finding some .380 brass without the cannelure. I have 2 or 3 hundred .380 range brass. I can send you 100 if you can not solve the problem of the cannelure.

I used to have a Llama .380, but gave it, and the ammo I had loaded for it, away to a friend. Wish I had never traded my .32 Llama for the .380 Llama.

If you can find some Remington 88 Gr JHPs, I bet they would be short enough to work. I still have some, but I don't know if they are still made.

 

[CZ223]

So try this

It does sound like the brass that you have has an internal "ledge" To stop the bullet from going into the case further than it should. If you have seated the bullet too deep then the case bulges at this point which explains why it does not want to chamber easily. I looked at the Montana website and, if you are using the 95 grain bullet it looks as though it should work. Here is what I would do.

1. Loosen the lock nut on your seat/crimp die and and back it off a couple turns.

2. insert a resized case and raise all the way into the die.

3.adjust die down till you feel it touch the case firmly and lock the die in place.

4. Back off the seater a couple of turns then seat the bullet so that it does not go past the ledge. Check that the dummy round fits in the mag and will chamber in the pistol. If it does not, gradually seat the bullet deeper, 1/4 turn at a time till it does.

5. Once the bullet is seated deep enough as described above, unlock the lock ring and adjust the die down 1/4 turn. This should apply just enough crimp. If it is set right you will feel just a bit of resistance at the bottom of the stroke. If it too much back off the die a little. You will get the feel for it.

If you cant seat the bullet deep enough without going past the ledge then you need different brass or different bullets. I have loaded the Hornady 90 grain XTP in this brass for my LCP and it worked fine. I think you need to tweak it a little.

 

[CZ223]

I just remembered

That the Fiochhi factory rounds are loaded with the 90 grain XTP bullet.

 

[Gunman21]

Wow this is great information, I have a lot to try and work with today. This is the only brass I have at the moment. Since .380 is like gold I had to shoot what was left of my box (5 rounds) so I could have something to start experimenting with. Thanks to Walkalong for the offer of brass, but I will check to see if I can find a few rounds at the range tommorrow.

Now that I understand the cannelure I can see how seeing below the cannelure will cause the case to flare.

I'll try everything that has been advised here.

I do have one question on the crimp with the Hornady dies. It is not covered in the reloading manual I purchased and not well explained with the instructions provided with my press. I've veiwed the darn Hornady video so much I'm dreaming about it in my sleep. I don't understand how to set the crimp on the die. The Hornady video tells me to just barely let the it mouth of the case touch the alignment sleeve and then a little turn more after bullet is seated. But on the video he rams the case way into and past the alignment sleeve. [Edit]: The alignment sleeve is two parts, he rams past the first part and touches the case mouth to the other part. Ok gotcha.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4Cw5dkWbTg&feature=related

3.adjust die down till you feel it touch the case firmly and lock the die in place.

Which part do I let touch the case firmly? The seating stem or the alignment sleeve?

5. Once the bullet is seated deep enough as described above, unlock the lock ring and adjust the die down 1/4 turn. This should apply just enough crimp. If it is set right you will feel just a bit of resistance at the bottom of the stroke. If it too much back off the die a little. You will get the feel for it.

When I adjust the die down 1/4 turn (my understanding is that this is to lower the alignment sleeve which will lower the crimp), won't this also lower the seating stem part of the die and force the bullet down further than desired?

 

[Jim Watson]

When I adjust the die down 1/4 turn (my understanding is that this is to lower the alignment sleeve which will lower the crimp), won't this also lower the seating stem part of the die and force the bullet down further than desired?

Yes, which means you have to do some extra work here.
Get a bullet seated to the desired depth with the crimp shoulder not touching.
Back off the seating stem.
Screw the body in until you get the desired crimp.
Run the round back in and turn the seating stem back down to firmly bear on the nose of the bullet.

I am not in favor of seating and crimping at the same time on an autopistol round, but that is the way to do it.

A Lee Carbide Factory Crimp would iron out the bulge caused by the Fiocchi case cannelure, and apply a taper crimp. This would add a step to the process in a single stage press but that may be what it takes to get you shooting.

 

[Walkalong]

Yes, it will lower the seating stem as well. This is where folks get turned around.

Get a round loaded at the O.A.L. you want without crimping. (Having the die screwed out enough not to crimp) Then back the seater stem way out. Then adjust the die down on your round to adjust the crimp. Then run the seater stem back down on the crimped round, plus a hair more. Now seat and crimp a round at the same time. You may have to make slight adjustments.

 

[Walkalong]

Hmmm. Jim and I were typing at the same time. Looks like he's faster, and right too, as usual.

 

[Gunman21]

Okay thank you. I'll try out these steps. I like the looks of the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp die and it has 5 star reveiws with descriptions of solving the problems I have. It says it applies a roll crimp. My understanding is that a taper crimp should be applied to semi auto pistol. A google search "roll crimp vs taper crimp" on the subject brought up this thread.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280299

So should I only use the lee factory crimp die with cases that have a cannelure?

 

[rcmodel]

The Lee FCB die does not apply a roll-crimp on auto-pistol calibers.

It just post sizes the case and squeezes it down to a tighter taper crimp if it is too big.
But it also squeezes the bullet down at the same time.

You don't want that!

Your seating die will do a perfectly fine taper crimp if properly adjusted.

And I agree you are seating too deep now and getting the bullet base past the case cannulure.

Follow the excellent advice above for properly adjusting the seating / crimp die and I think your problem will be solved.

BTW: That the barrel out of the gun and use it for a guage at the loading bench.
It will help find & solve all your problems before they get stuck in the gun!

rc

 

[Gunman21]

BTW: That the barrel out of the gun and use it for a guage at the loading bench.
It will help find & solve all your problems before they get stuck in the gun!

Too Late!!



I set the bullets above the cannelure. I'm still having sizing problems. I feel like the crimping part of the die just isn't working.

I made a quick video because a picture's worth a thousand words and a video's worth a million.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifEtrT12U3o

 

[Marlinreloader]

Do you happen to have a single stage press you can make a dummy round with? You could then use that round to adjust your lock n load off of. Just a thought.
I know you said the bullet measures at the correct size. What size is that? From the video the brass looks really bulged. How far down are you flairing your cases?

I know there are arguments both ways but this is why I love my Lee FCD. I was also having trouble with one type of bullet and it help the problem go away.

Marlinreloader

Marlinreloader

 

[depoloni]

My LCP has a short leade (the "cone" cut into the rifling where it starts) and I'm guessing, despite watching your video, that the bullet is engaging the lands of the rifling before the whole case chambers.

The last cartridge you show appears to be able to take a measure more taper crimp, but I'm unfamiliar with hornady pistol dies or the LnL myself. And I'm pretty sure that would, brass only, chamber in my pistol.

Try resizing one of those cases empty with no bullet and chambering just the case. Headspaces on the case mouth, should work. Then try seating the bullet deeper.

My CZ-75 is just like my LCP - have to seat most bullets (especially cast) deeper than factory specs. Some bullet nose profiles are fatter nearer the tip than others. You'll have to safely work up from minimums, but it shouldn't cause a problem. If those cases won't allow you to seat the bullets you chose further without bulging, and the problem is indeed the bullets hanging up in the rifling lands prematurely, you'll have to pick different cases or different bullets. Hope this helps some, kind of hate chiming in after all the people I respect most on here already shared their opinions hehe

 

[Walkalong]

The O.A.L. is way too short on the first reload you show. Not just because it is below the cannelure, it's just too short period.

The second reload you show still has some flare on the case mouth. It must be removed. Your die may be bad.

The little bulge at the bottom of the bullet seems a bit excessive. It also seems to be on one side, which tells me it isn't seated straight.

Hard to diagnose from a vid, even though it is a great vid.

 

[Kentucky Jelly]

It almost looks like you have the crimp adjustment on the seating die set down too low. Like the rim isn't crimping but buckling the case. I did this with rifle rounds before learning the adjustment with hornady dies. I am going to try and replicate with my lnl and 9mm with a cannelure piece of brass.

Wasn't able to buckle a case like that. did crimp it so much it looked like a .357 sig round though lol.

 

[Kentucky Jelly]

I just remembered an issue I had with a lee die. The die was right but shipped with the incorrect "guts". Take the die apart and see if a sized case will start to seat in the crimp part. My issue was the opposite and I wasnt getting any crimp. I swear yours looks like it is collapsing the brass instead of crimping it.

Here is my thread for reference http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=352916

 

[Gunman21]

Ok I'm giving an update. I made another video to help diagnose the problem. By painting the rounds with a "sharpie" permanent marker and analyzing the scuff marks, the cause of the round not chambering must be from the bulge of the case contacting the chamber.

Video Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB69yrDC9uI


Still unsuccessful in solving the problem but I did call Hornady and they are sending me a factory taper crimp die. I've heard it's not as good as Lee's, but hey it's free so I'll see if it works. Hopefully it will remove that extra flare on the case mouth.

To answer a few questions...
*The bullets are 95 grain. Diameter is .355
*A resized case with no bullet WILL chamber fine
*The bullet is NOT engaging the lands prematurely (It may once the case is narrowed and allows for further insertion into the chamber, so I'll keep that in mind)

It also seems to be on one side, which tells me it isn't seated straight.

That's a great point by Walkalong and my gut tells me the same thing. I can almost eyeball a crooked bullet on a few of the reloads. My Hornady die has a sleeve which is advertised to guide the bullet and seat it straight. So why doesn't it? Research on the topic brought me this article...

http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.rifle-reloading-bullet-run-out.html


The articles makes the point of having a precise chamfer for proper bullet seating. I could be making a rookie mistake by doing this by hand (or chamfering too much). I only have a RCBS $20 hand chamfer tool. Chamfer and Debur was not well covered in the Hornady Reloading Book and I'm struggling to find proper reading material on the subject.

Do I need machine like this Power Trimmer RCBS set up? The machine does the chamfer and debur while trimming. I can also hook my drill to the hand crank.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=114864

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=145038

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=421718


I have also "squared" my seating die as I have heard this helps.

As always thank you for your comments.