4 Marines Killed in Tennessee Today Were Unarmed

[.455_Hunter]

Commanders should be allowed some discretion, but in general, E6 and up should be able to go about their business with a M9 on their belt without issue. In some units, you still have E6s crawling under trucks to help pull transmissions, so some flexibility is necessary. Obviously, said personnel would need to be qualified on their pistol, and receive additional training on its potential and appropriate CONUS usage. Lower ranks would be armed as appropriate (gate guard/duty/etc.). Really, Senior NCOs and Officers (YES- EVEN LTs!) should be issued their sidearm that they are responsible for 24/7, maintaining storage in on-post quarters or off-post housing and carry as part of their daily duty uniform. The concept that junior O1/O2 officers are not worthy of carrying is asinine- I probably knew more about handguns in my company as a 2LT than ANY other person, and if that trust is violated, they get a one-way ticket to a dishonorable discharge and Ft. Leavenworth, as needed. I agree, a sea of privates running around with loaded M4s is not a good idea, but sufficient personnel of higher rank (and expertise) could enhance security greatly.

 

[Handloader109]

One would hope - but I seriously doubt anything is going to change. We can all thank Dick Cheney for this stupidity. Disarming soldiers was all his idea back in 1993 when he was Sec. of Defense. Another interesting note - Obama will not allow Officers to wear ceremonial swords or have a functional weapon in his presence. One of the Marines who was slain was a decorated soldier with two Purple Hearts. He survived his combat tours and then is killed in Chattanooga. I am a Veteran and I am very angry and very disgusted with our leaders. Rest in Peace my brothers. P.S. - the gate that was crashed yesterday had no guards on duty - and no armed troops inside. Obama has expressed his "deepest condolences" and vowed to tell our soldiers to be "vigilant". AGAIN.

Get your history right! Cheney left gov when Bill Clinton came into office in 1992. And it was Billy the cigar man that signed into law preventing service men from carrying arms. Unfortunately, this really isn't politically left or right, it is just plain stupid on the government's part in not allowing the men to be at least armed where there isn't any reason not to allow.....if a couple of the first group attacks had been armed, there may not have been a chance for this loser to kill at second location.

 

[Thermactor]

I'm sure that base security measures will be tightened up after this. My thoughts go out to the families of the bereaved.

 

[jmr40]

Remember, there were 2 separate shootings. He never left the car at the recruiting station. Most likely emptied a magazine into the door and drove off within seconds. No time for anyone to react.

At the Navy/Marine reserve center he rammed a gate to gain entry. Exactly what happened there is much less clear. Some reports indicate a 20 minute gun battle between him and LE before he died in a wooded area nearby. Still unclear if he was shot by LE or suicide but it appears to have been shot by LE.

We can Monday morning QB all we want, but guards at the gate should have been armed.

 

[happygeek]

While I agree that military folks should be armed, let's get part of this story straight. The shooting did NOT occur in a gun-free zone. The shooter fired from inside his vehicle in a parking lot where people are most definitely allowed to carry guns, where local CHL'ers certainly could have tried to intervene had they been armed and willing.

You're confusing the recruiting center with the reserve center. Apparently all four murders happened at the reserve center, which is a gun free zone.

The details are always murky right after one of these happens, and the media normally doesn't help much, but having been to a few reserve centers I'd hazard a guess that there was only 4 or 5 people there when the attack happened.

We're also very, very lucky that he didn't feel like getting out of his car and entering the recruiting center. From the pictures it looks like all 4 services plus the National Guard had offices in a row there, meaning probably 20 plus people, all in gun free offices.

 

[Drail]

Handloader 109 - my history is correct. The D.O.D. Directive was drafted by Dick Cheney when he was Sec. Def. in Feb. 1992. He did not sign it - he had his flunky Deputy Director sign it. Geroge Bush the Senior signed it in 1993. Look it up. All Clinton did was make it apply to all service branches instead of only the Army. I have one undocumented source that claims the Directive was actually drafted by Cheney in 1986 - but he held it until 1992. Cheney was also a member of a think tank (Americans for a New Century) that drafted the original Patriot Act - way back in 1984 - that's right - 1984. He kept that one in a drawer as well - until Sept 11 2001 and pulled it out when he thought the time was right - to railroad it through the Congress (who voted on it without ever reading it). I am not a Bush supporter OR an Obama supporter. These kind of politics are far more complex than just left or right.

 

[another pake]

OK we know that the troops were disarmed on posts here years ago even though we may not remember who ordered it. My question is why? Was there a spate of weird shootings or what? I don't remember.

I do know that in 68, as part of my CQ duty in a stateside assignment I wore an issued, loaded, 1911. Never any question or SOP on using it.

As far as I know or can remember there weren't issues about irresponsible use.
Can you remember any history prompting the change?

 

[Drail]

The only history I am aware of is simply that the politicians wanted more control over the military. Nothing new there.

 

[Red Wind]

I can remember vividly, in near freezing weather, marching over and over again, around the barracks in BT at Fort ,Polk, LA at, 2 to 4 am, with an unloaded M-14 in early April,1964.

Guard Duty.

It made no sense then, it makes no sense now.

 

[Tinpig]

Another interesting note - Obama will not allow Officers to wear ceremonial swords or have a functional weapon in his presence.

I guess you didn't see the USMA graduation at West Point on 28 May 2014:

Tinpig

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I agree, a sea of privates running around with loaded M4s is not a good idea, but sufficient personnel of higher rank (and expertise) could enhance security greatly.

So the argument would be offered as to why the sea of privates don't deserve equal protection as officers. Do they not matter as much?

Also, higher rank AND expertise? So a Colonel who is a logistics specialist would not be allowed to carry, but a battle field veteran Captain would? I don't follow the notion of special qualifications of "expertise."

 

[climbnjump]

A couple of instances of armed civilians standing guard outside recruiting stations the day after Chattanooga:

http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/29573755/man-armed-guard-recruiting-office

http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/29572644/hiram-watch

 

[mag1911]

When I was in guard duty consisted of:

Weapon without ammunition when guarding facilities like office buildings.

Weapon with limited ammunition when guarding more important facilities like ammunition dumps, etc. Two magazines with 3 rounds each wire tied with lead seals kept in the magazine pouch. We got pretty good at working off the lead seals and putting all rounds in one magazine. Before the guard changed you split the ammunition back up and put the seals back on to hand them over to the next guard. The next guard did the same thing.

Weapon and full ammunition only happened a couple times when escorting very important cargo from one place to another.

The military mostly has this policy/opinion about guards: They exist only to issue challenges/sound the alarm; observe and report; provide animated targets until the cavalry arrives.

 

[USAF_Vet]

After 9/11 I was an augmetee to the Security Forces who deployed. We had mags, and ammo for our M-16A2 rifles. NCO's who were qualified had M9 pistols. We even had a Humvee with an M2 .50 BMG posted at the front gate. It didn't last long, though.

Of my three tours in Iraq, we had rifles issued to us. We kept them locked up at our unit building, except for a few potentially hairy situations, but mostly because they just ended up getting in the way. When we did carry them, it was with a full mag and an empty chamber. 3 mags full of ammo were issued.

My last tour I was running convoys, and kept both my M-4 and my M9 with me.

IT wasn't til after I left CONUS that guard duty got contracted to civvies. But Over in Turkey, the Turkish AF personnel manned the gates and they were armed. I separated in Turkey, so never saw another stateside installation.

 

[AR-15Nutt]

yes, it was an AK47.., in the true sense of it being an AK47 makes it a full auto !!

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/07/1...ties-scrutinize-chattanooga-shooter-visit-to/

...used an AK-47 to gun down the unarmed Marines

 

[Robert]

Three pages of devicive political and off topic posts coupled with the fact that while tragic, the event in and of itself has nothing to do with the mission of THR have more than closed this thread.

If a cogent plan for more/ future gun control comes out of this then that is something we can debate.