40 S&W or 45 ACP for a deer or woods gun

[huntsman]

.45acp, in fact it's a legal option for me in Ohio.

 

[burk]

The average deer is a bit smaller (by weight) than the average man. Therefore, it would seem like self defense rounds/calibers would be just fine. So, 9mm hollow-points, .40's, .45, 5.56, etc... But isn't it ill advised (or illegal) to use stuff like that for hunting deer? It seems like much higher powered rounds are used.

If a .44 Magnum works on a deer, why is it considered a poor self defense round?

1) While the average deer is a bit smaller, they have a much thicker hide and are much more athletic (capable of running much faster and further after they are hit). You do need a bit more penetrating abilities than a lot of handguns. Especially if your shot placement is poor

2) Most handgun rounds drop precipitously after about 50 yards making the average shot much more difficult. While the average gun fight happens within 7 yards, 80-150 yard shots are not that uncommon Deer hunting. While the stopping power of a 9mm, 40, or 45 is sufficient for Deer out to 25 yards or so, beyond that the reduced velocity and impact reduces effectiveness. Even the 44 mag drops like it's falling off a table after about 65 yards with most shorter handgun barrels and most hand gun rounds.

3) As far as the .44 for self defense, this issue is not stopping power. It's ease of handling. Good .44 magnums are heavy, big, and 4" is about the shortest effective barrel length. If you've ever shot a 4" .44, you'll know they kick like an MF. They have far more felt recoil than the .460 or 500, in fact they are brutal. So getting good second shots requires a ton of practice at about a buck a round. They are good back woods carry guns with the right loads in Bear country, but for humans or any other threat they are far to impractical. As far as a deer hunting pistol round the .41 mag is probably more practical, as is the 10mm, and the .460 is a hundred yard gun with the right loads.

 

[barnbwt]

Wait, I thought 45LC in black powder was developed to fell horses . Have modern advances in nutrition and medicine made deer stronger as well as men? (you know, since 32acp is no longer sufficient, and all). I think some folks may have missed the part in the OP about 25yrds, when suggesting stuff that nearly rivals 30-30 .

TCB

 

[justin10mm]

Many people that weigh in on these type of threads have never hunted with a handgun before. Some have never hunted before period. But that doesn't stop them from touting the virtues of various .45 and 50 caliber magnums while claiming anything less than a .44 mag will bounce off a deer.

 

[Robbins290]

Justin10mm. I agree with you. I asked about which caliber was better for a woods gun out of 9mm, 40 and 357 sig. And everyother post was saying sell them and get a 10mm. I said a few times i dont need a 10mm.

 

[Davek1977]

How do you define "ideal" as your definition and mine must be drastically different. A marginal handgun round not legal for hunting in most states is far from what I would consider the perfect weapon for the job. Whats your reasoning behind calling either choice "ideal" for even short range hunting?

A .22 will drop a deer dead in its tracks whatever cal you use its really important shot placement is all that's matters.

I think that statement certainly needs qualification. Out of a rifle, with extreme care given to shot placement, the .22 CAN kill deer if things go perfectly, and range is kept EXTREMELY short. However, having dispatched more than a few wounded deer with a .22 cal sidearm, I can unequivocally say that even at almost contact distances, a .22 will NOT ALWAYS kill deer with a headshot, even with the barrel mere inches from its head. I've actually shot a deer 3-4 times before killing it, even when aimed at the so-called "sweet spot" that is "supposed" to result in instant death "every time". I've witnessed this phenomenon enough times I no longer employ the technique and cut the throat if I can do so safely, or simply shoot it again with my primary arm if necessary.

 

[SDGlock23]

I find it silly how anyone can argue that the relatively minor power variances in service calibers (9mm, 357, .40 S&W, 10mm, .45 ACP) compared to rifles and shotguns actually makes much of any difference. Some above said:

...i wouldnt go hunting with a pistol and if i did it would be a 10mm or 44mag. Both the .45acp and .40 s&w are underpowered compared to other calibers mentioned above even a 357 mag is more ideal...

Compared to rifles/shotguns, pretty much all pistols and certainly all service grade calibers are, or are capable of being within 200-300 ft-lbs of each other, whereas rifles can easily have thousands of more ft-lbs, yet they can all drop a deer where it stands, even though it doesn't always happen even with high powered rifles. My point is that energy is just a relatively meaningless number than too many people put way too much emphasis on. Arrows have very low "energy" yet they kill just fine.

9mm deer (small)
http://youtu.be/jcBqiKyXX7s

Glock .45 deer
http://youtu.be/hHR9tusOsdk

.40 on deer
http://www.gunblast.com/JoeRiekers-NewAmmo.htm

I'm not saying any handgun is ideal, but it's silly how people think that anything less than their .30-06 won't work.

 

[tarosean]

I think some folks may have missed the part in the OP about 25yrds, when suggesting stuff that nearly rivals 30-30 .

Yet the OP didn't list his experience level either...big difference in someone who has made kills for decades and someone who will get the "fever".

Another thing with semi autos is, look up your game laws for mag cap restrictions.

This was my deer hunting gun when I got away from rifles, and before I picked up bows. 10.5" of SBH in 44 mag.

 

[Panzerschwein]

NEITHER.

You want AT LEAST a 6" .357 magnum with a very hot load to deer hunt, or better yet step up to .41 or .44 magnum. A .44 magnum with a 6" tube makes an ideal hunting handgun.

JMHO.

 

[JR24]

You want AT LEAST a 6" .357 magnum with a very hot load to deer hunt, or better yet step up to .41 or .44 magnum. A .44 magnum with a 6" tube makes an ideal hunting handgun.

At > 50 yards I'd agree. OP indicated 25 yards or less. I've taken whitetail at that range with a 4" .357 and moderate loads, they didn't complain... dead right there. Hit your spot and .40 or .45 will do just fine.

I'd prefer .45, but mostly because I shoot .45 better and am more accurate/comfortable with that caliber.

I find that some people's suggestions here are akin to those who somehow believe you can't hunt whitetail with anything less than a .300 WIN Mag. To each their own but people vastly overestimate the toughness of deer IMO.

 

[tactikel]

Let's see, a .45 ACP killing a 180 pound mammal at 25 yards, what are the odds? A stoutly loaded .45 ACP will best a .44-40 which has taken thousands of deer over the years. Personally I'd use no less than a .357, but a good shot, at an ethical distance is IMHO good to go.

 

[mongoslow]

if im hunting with my pistol I'm hungry, right now its loaded with 155grn XTP's at 25 yards everything i shoot is inside the 9 ring so im taking the head shot and will be grilling backstrap as soon as the fire is hot

 

[Big Shrek]

Thing is, how often would one be tempted to take a shot at over 25 yards with a .40 or .45?

Its like when you are bowhunting, 35-40 yards is a little on the long side,
because those rascals will dodge and duck an arrow...
but heck, you spot a big rack crossing your path, but he's at 45-50...
You know you're pretty darn good at the range out to 70...
and are consistently in the top 5 at IBO meets...whatcha gonna do??
Me, I'm gonna pray he looks the wrong way for a second or two

 

[browningguy]

You might be able to use them but they are far from ideal, I have actually shot a dall sheep at about 12 yards with a .40, and wouldn't do it again. It knocked him down but took two more shots from PBR in the chest to kill him. I felt really bad about that and won't do it again. And the first shot was a good shot, but the HP round seemed to clog up with the hair and didn't penetrate enough.

These days I carry a Ruger Super Blackhawk with 7 1/2" barrel in .44 mag when I am hunting.

 

[gotboostvr]

I'd say 45, with as heavy a boolit and as wide a meplat as possible going as hard as you can safely drive it.

something like a SWC in the 240-250 range at about 850-900 should be about as good joo-joo as you're gonna get from either.

 

[rule303]

I have shot several deer with the .357 Magnum, it kills them with a good shot, but not as cleanly as I would like. I have since switched to a .44 Mag. Handguns don't have the energy for an instant stop unless you hit the brain or spinal column. You want a round that will completely penetrate and leave a large hole. To me that is a 200gr+ bullet at 1,000+ fps. There also aren't many choices for an appropriate hunting bullet for either the .40 or the .45 ACP.

 

[hartcreek]

I am planning on using three different handguns this season. One will be my recently purchased Uberti Walker. It was designed to shoot horses so it sure as heck will be fine on the small mulies I may encounter.

My Ivar Johnson .44 Magnum with its 18 inch barrel is hard to miss anything with. My Smith 624 will also do the job with my hand loads.

 

[travisd]

My answer to what you asked without all the BS some people need to throw in, I'd feel comfortable taking a deer at < 25 yards with my 1911 although I never have.. But then I hunt and know what it actually takes to kill a deer.

 

[SDGlock23]

Handguns don't have the energy for an instant stop unless you hit the brain or spinal column. You want a round that will completely penetrate and leave a large hole. To me that is a 200gr+ bullet at 1,000+ fps. There also aren't many choices for an appropriate hunting bullet for either the .40 or the .45 ACP.

While I agree handguns don't have rifle-like energy levels, I've seen a number drop where they stood with broadside shots to the vitals using service class handgun calibers (9mm and up), not brain or spine shots. Bigger handgun bullets kill very efficiently even at modest velocities. You're right that there aren't "many" true hunting bullets for the .40 or .45 ACP, the XTP lineup for both are perfectly appropriate JHP's for hunting and as for hardcasts, both have several with nice wide meplats on them.

The .40 has a few nice 200gr options, especially the 200gr WFNGC and even the 180gr RNFP .38-40 hardcast does well. For the old .45 ACP, there are several 250-260gr class hardcasts than can be driven to 950-1000 fps from a 5" .45 that will put a hurtin' on any deer. Both with hardcasts will punch a hole in one side and out the other, it's up to you to put the bullet in the right place, which is the main issue for most as many can't shoot their handgun accurately enough to cleanly hunt with.

Truthfully, even the 9mm is sufficient, a 147gr hardcast will penetrate a long way, and a hole through the vitals is all it takes. It may not hit 'em like a 300 Win Mag, but it will work if you do your part.

 

[mbt2001]

Obviously shot placement is key. That being said either will work fine, but I frankly find it a touch unethical outside a survival or similar situation.

 

[huntsman]

but I frankly find it a touch unethical outside a survival or similar situation

Even if DNR approves? Really if a state allows Archery or muzzeloader then when is a .45acp unethical? My state(Ohio) allows .38cal in muzzeloader so how can they deny a .38spl handgun let alone a .45acp? and when the hunting with suppression law passes I assume one can hunt Ohio Whitetail with a 5" barreled .45 semi-auto suppressed, how's that for breaking with tradition.

 

[S&Wfan]

For over a decade now I've "just" hunted Georgia whitetails with a 6" barreled .44 Magnum (S&W Model 29-5). It has been perfect for our sized bucks, which rarely get above 220.

That being said, I'm really obsessed with only taking humane, quick-kill shots. I don't want to wound a deer and/or have to track it far. Thus:

1. I also carry my rarely needed scoped .270 deer rifle in case the shot can't be taken with the handgun with 100% assurance. However, I don't hesitate using it if I'm not sure.

2. I hunt with a specific 300 grain bullet that has proven to be virtually 100% successful in the field, year to year. My longest shot was 60 yards in a clear cut about 15 years ago . . . a broadside shot and the deer dropped like a stone and never twitched. Of course, strange things happen in the field and I once had a buck run 175 yards after taking out his heart at 23 yards.

That being said, I lost a good Whitetail buck two seasons ago . . . my first with that bullet. The deer was standing @ 50 yards, my technique was flawless, my sight picture good, and my shot was true. It was a "dead deer running" but it headed into a very thick area and I couldn't find it for a few days. I took that hard personally, for it broke a long string. Bottom line . . .

TAKE ENOUGH GUN TO BE HUMANE!

I'm a huge .45ACP fan and usually have one with me at camp . . . but I'd never hunt with it for whitetail. Under FIELD conditions it is simply too wimpy a round to count on it working consistently. Ditto with a .40S&W. Although borderline, I also don't hunt with a .357 Magnum either.

.41 Magnum or 10mm would be my minimum in Georgia . . . and I'm a long-time handgun competitor with the skills to take game humanely with my .44 Magnum.

If you can consistently hand-hold a handgun and group three rounds inside of 3" at 50 yards, AND you've got a lot of field time as a hunter, then the minimum caliber of .41 Mag/10mm would apply. If you can't do this yet, I would recommend a rifle until your proficiency and experience gets you to that level.

 

[SDGlock23]

TAKE ENOUGH GUN TO BE HUMANE!

I'm a huge .45ACP fan and usually have one with me at camp . . . but I'd never hunt with it for whitetail. Under FIELD conditions it is simply too wimpy a round to count on it working consistently. Ditto with a .40S&W. Although borderline, I also don't hunt with a .357 Magnum either.

.41 Magnum or 10mm would be my minimum in Georgia . . . and I'm a long-time handgun competitor with the skills to take game humanely with my .44 Magnum.

If you can consistently hand-hold a handgun and group three rounds inside of 3" at 50 yards, AND you've got a lot of field time as a hunter, then the minimum caliber of .41 Mag/10mm would apply. If you can't do this yet, I would recommend a rifle until your proficiency and experience gets you to that level.

I agree with taking enough gun to be humane, but even with more than enough gun inhumane shots can and do occur, and I know you know that, but most inhumane shots are the result of bad shot placement. I don't think most are good enough with a handgun to hunt with it much past 25yds and I would argue that the majority of the inhumane shots taken on deer come from rifles with plenty of "power".

I say that with the proper loadings, the .40, .45 and 357 Mag are very much capable of taking deer cleanly assuming proper shot placement and bullet selection, they're not really ideal, but for that matter most handguns aren't. I don't see eye to eye with you about the .40 and .45 being too wimpy because while you can categorize them as wimpy compared to certain weapons, they're not wimpy compared to the 10mm, at least comparatively. They are weaker technically in an energy sense of the word, but all three (.40, 10mm, .45) will cut a hole in one side of a deer and out the other.

A good .45 ACP woods/deer load is a 255gr hardcast running at 950+ fps, it's plenty to cut through any deer. Energy wise no it doesn't compare to a 10mm with nuclear handloads, but it doesn't have to, it just works. Same can be said for warm .40's that are only slightly slower than hot 10mm's, sure the 10mm will look more powerful but realistically ~100 fps isn't the difference between kill and no kill. If energy was as important as most think, deer would run off after getting hit with rifles, but they do, so really penetration is more important than energy.

 

[Lucky Derby]

The average deer is a bit smaller (by weight) than the average man. Therefore, it would seem like self defense rounds/calibers would be just fine. So, 9mm hollowpoints, .40's, .45, 5.56, etc... But isn't it ill advised (or illegal) to use stuff like that for hunting deer? It seems like much higher powered rounds are used.

If a .44 Magnum works on a deer, why is it considered a poor self defense round?

1. You are not in a life threatening situation when you line up your shot on a deer so the abilty to do fast follow up shots is not generally critical in deer hunting, like it is in SD.
2. In SD shooting you want the round to go into the target and dump all it's energy in the target and stop short of passing through. While Hunting you want the round to go all the way through the target and exit the other side.

 

[Big Shrek]

I presume you mean ideal semi-auto handgun for deer hunting.

Answer... no.

Will it work. Yes.

If I used a .40 I'd use the 180 gr. JHP loads.
If .45, the 200-230 JHPs. And yes, the .45 Super loads, with appropriate springs, will do fine to.

As long as you are a good shot at 25 yards, say you can hit a 20 oz can at that distance, every time, then you are good to go.

Shot placement is king with those loads. Broadside standing shots only with heart/lung the target.

I use a .44 4 inch S&W 620-1 for deer hunting with DPX ammo. It is NOT max loaded.

Shoot strait and that .40/.45 will do the trick.

Deaf

Texas Cornhole shot works pretty darn well too