.40 S&W vs. .45 ACP

[RKRNC]

Mustang vs. Camaro?

I really don't want this thread to turn into a bashing contest. I own pistols in both calibers (Both SW99's). I have looked-up data for each caliber, what I am interested in is understanding that data (in a practical sense). I think this would be benneficial to others as well.

Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (MOA)
0 -1.5 *** 0.0 *** 941.8 0.844 452.9 0.000 0.0 ***
25 -0.0 -0.0 0.2 0.6 921.5 0.825 433.6 0.081 14.2 54.1
50 -1.1 -2.0 0.6 1.2 902.6 0.808 416.0 0.163 28.6 54.7
75 -4.8 -6.1 1.4 1.7 885.1 0.793 400.1 0.247 43.4 55.3
100 -11.3 -10.8 2.4 2.3 868.6 0.778 385.3 0.332 58.5 55.8
125 -20.6 -15.8 3.7 2.8 852.9 0.764 371.4 0.419 73.8 56.4
150 -33.0 -21.0 5.3 3.4 837.8 0.750 358.4 0.508 89.4 56.9
175 -48.5 -26.4 7.2 3.9 823.3 0.737 346.1 0.598 105.3 57.5
200 -67.1 -32.0 9.4 4.5 809.4 0.725 334.5 0.690 121.5 58.0
.45 ACP 230gr @ 939fps

Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (MOA)
0 -1.5 *** 0.0 *** 1168.2 1.046 545.4 0.000 0.0 ***
25 -0.0 -0.0 0.3 1.2 1109.8 0.994 492.2 0.066 11.6 44.3
50 -0.3 -0.5 1.2 2.2 1063.0 0.952 451.5 0.135 23.8 45.4
75 -2.4 -3.1 2.5 3.2 1023.6 0.917 418.7 0.207 36.4 46.4
100 -6.7 -6.4 4.4 4.2 990.4 0.887 391.9 0.282 49.5 47.3
125 -13.2 -10.1 6.6 5.0 962.2 0.862 370.0 0.358 63.1 48.2
150 -22.0 -14.0 9.2 5.8 936.8 0.839 350.7 0.437 77.0 49.0
175 -33.3 -18.2 12.2 6.6 913.6 0.818 333.5 0.518 91.2 49.8
200 -47.2 -22.5 15.5 7.4 892.0 0.799 318.0 0.602 105.9 50.6
.40 S&W 180gr @ 1159fps

The above tables represent a small sampling of the research I have conducted. The tables were generated using JBM's calculator with Hodgdon load data. I pray I am giving proper reference.

I chose to post the above bullet weights based upon what I could discerne as two popular weights (perhaps readily available). I plan to expand the table research to all weights for each caliber.

What I notice is two very similar sets of data, especially where energy is concerned. So, the first question: How important is energy?

I have always had excellent results with forum members. Feel free to educate me.

Thanks.

 

[jad0110]

So, the first question: How important is energy?

IMHO, not much.

Obviously, there must be at least some energy to get the projectile up to speed and to hit and penetrate a target, but the energy itself isn't what causes the damage, IMO.

Ever seen the Mythbusters "blown away" episode? Basically, they shot Buster the dummy with a .50 BMG from about 10' away. A steel plate was attached to buster in an attempt to transfer maximum energy to the dummy. The .50 did penetrate the plate, but it lodged itself in Buster's "spine". Even with the vaunted energy levels in the .50 BMG transferred darn near 100% to the dummy, Buster only slid back an inch or so off the stand they had rigged for it before slumping to the ground. Energy transfer my big 'ole butt !

IMO, it is not the energy, but the projectile itself that causes the primary/direct damage, at least at handgun velocities. Therefore, a handgun bullet you can place precisely that will reach a minimum penetration depth (such as the FBI's 12" minimum) is honestly a lot more important than ft-lbs of energy. A larger diameter bullet doesn't hurt either, as the larger diameter very slightly increases the odds of clipping something important to the bad guy's continued functioning, but I wouldn't pick a .45 if I can shoot a 9mm better.

Personally, my favorite SD cartridge is the humble .38 Special. It doesn't look like much on paper. In fact, it is often derided by the energy transfer crowd for it's relatively low kenetic energy (ft-lbs). I love it because is easy for me to shoot, doesn't produce much crack and flash, and in a good hollowpoint load, will expand and penetrate to at least the FBI's 12 minimum, even through several layers of denim.

Just my opinions though, you paid nothing for them and perhaps got exactly that . I'm sure others will disagree. Let the fireworks begin!

 

[Lone_Gunman]

For handgun rounds, energy is not as important a factor as it is with high powered rifle rounds. In general, there is not enough energy in a handgun round to do damage to tissue not directly traumatized by the bullet. The energy of a handgun bullet is very important, however, in determining if the bullet will expand. If it expands, more tissue will be directly traumatized. So to disregard energy as unimportant in handgun cartridges really misses the whole concept of bullet expansion. Hollowpoints need energy to expand.

The energy of a rifle round is enough to impart damage to tissue that the bullet does not come directly in contact with. I have taken care of people shot with rifle rounds, and there is generally an area of tissue around the bullet path that will die and have to be debrided (surgically excised). For handgun rounds, that is not really the case. The only tissue traumatized is that directly in the bullet's path.

 

[BrianB]

You're right. They're both very solid defensive rounds, especially with the right bullet choices. For example, I've read that the 135 gr. 40 actually has had better stopping record on the street than the larger 180 gr.

Some random thoughts:

1. They shoot differently, with many thinking .45 is somewhat easier to handle muzzle climb.
2. The 40 usually gets you more magazine capacity than 45
3. Ammo prices differ between the two.

Personally, I like the .40. But I found it more difficult to tame initially.

 

[M&PVolk]

I have to admit my experience with how energy from a handgun works in a human body is pretty limited, but I do know that it makes a difference from a rifle. I have seen a .223 wound that snapped a femer without directly impacting it. Kinetic energy was responsible for the break. It is strictly an opinion here, but it would seem that higher velocity would help with energy transfer, and that even in a handgun cartridge it would have some effect.

My understanding is that the greatest stopping property of a handgun wound is the effect on the human psyche. The "I've just been shot" reaction is often times what stops an assailant, not the actual wound. Given that this is the case, I would think the greater energy transferred into the target would have an increased emotional and psychological effect hopefully leading to stopping an assailant, regardless of any increased physical damage actually suffered. Again, just my opinion, but I would say greater kinetic energy transfer is a factor worth considering. I hope that I never have to find out.

I prefer the .40 for greater round count, excellent SD pedigree, and slimmer gun design.

 

[easyg]

Does energy matter?


It does seem that the calibers with greater energy (.357magnum, .45ACP, .40S&W, .357Sig, 10mm) are more effective than calibers with less energy (.22LR from a pistol, .25ACP, .32HR, .380, .38Special, 9mm).

 

[Lone_Gunman]

It does seem that the calibers with greater energy (.357magnum, .45ACP, .40S&W, .357Sig, 10mm) are more effective than calibers with less energy (.22LR from a pistol, .25ACP, .32HR, .380, .38Special, 9mm).

Bullet weight and diameter also explains the improved performance of the cartridges you list first. Energy is really only important in terms of getting those bullets to expand.

 

[easyg]

Bullet weight and diameter also explains the improved performance of the cartridges you list first. Energy is really only important in terms of getting those bullets to expand.

No, I don't buy the expansion argument.

Heck, in most cases you're only talking about a tiny amount of expansion difference, and in some cases the expansion is virtually the same...

A fully expanded 125g .357 magnum round is no bigger (or heavier) than a fully expanded 125g .38 special round or a 125g 9mm round, but the .357 magnum round has a much better reputation as a man-stopper than the .38 special or the 9mm round.

I might buy a deeper penetration argument, but certainly not a larger expansion argument.

 

[Snowdog]

I've always been under the impression that JHPs were to assist in facilitating the transfer of energy by increasing the surface area and/or the mass of the projectile (via fragmentation). How accurate this belief is, I don't know... but I don't much care to research this as first off, I haven't the time and second, I like both the .40S&W and .45acp. FWIW, I carry a 9mm and feel comfortable knowing it will penetrate to the vitals after or during expansion.

 

[Philo_Beddoe]

IMHO, not much.

Obviously, there must be at least some energy to get the projectile up to speed and to hit and penetrate a target, but the energy itself isn't what causes the damage, IMO.

Ever seen the Mythbusters "blown away" episode? Basically, they shot Buster the dummy with a .50 BMG from about 10' away. A steel plate was attached to buster in an attempt to transfer maximum energy to the dummy. The .50 did penetrate the plate, but it lodged itself in Buster's "spine". Even with the vaunted energy levels in the .50 BMG transferred darn near 100% to the dummy, Buster only slid back an inch or so off the stand they had rigged for it before slumping to the ground. Energy transfer my big 'ole butt !

IMO, it is not the energy, but the projectile itself that causes the primary/direct damage, at least at handgun velocities. Therefore, a handgun bullet you can place precisely that will reach a minimum penetration depth (such as the FBI's 12" minimum) is honestly a lot more important than ft-lbs of energy. A larger diameter bullet doesn't hurt either, as the larger diameter very slightly increases the odds of clipping something important to the bad guy's continued functioning, but I wouldn't pick a .45 if I can shoot a 9mm better.

Personally, my favorite SD cartridge is the humble .38 Special. It doesn't look like much on paper. In fact, it is often derided by the energy transfer crowd for it's relatively low kenetic energy (ft-lbs). I love it because is easy for me to shoot, doesn't produce much crack and flash, and in a good hollowpoint load, will expand and penetrate to at least the FBI's 12 minimum, even through several layers of denim.

Just my opinions though, you paid nothing for them and perhaps got exactly that . I'm sure others will disagree. Let the fireworks begin!

agreed

 

[Lone_Gunman]

I might buy a deeper penetration argument, but certainly not a larger expansion argument.

Deeper penetration is certainly important as well. My point is that the energy itself, even with 357 mag, is below the threshold that causes tissue trauma, and therefore 357 is still dependent on expansion, penetration, and direct contact between projectile and tissue.

Now there probably is a certain amount of psychological effect by being hit with a higher energy handgun round such as 357 as opposed to 38 special, and certainly there is a better chance that the psychological effect will cause the person who is shot to change their behavior, so in that regard the energy probably does have effect.

But what I am really talking about is tissue trauma related directly to energy. It does not happen with handgun rounds.

 

[KBintheSLC]

I'm not really sure that the difference is really important enough to argue about. I am betting that the bad guy won't tell a bit of difference between the two. Just get the one you like and you shoot well with.

 

[Highcaliber]

What about the energy required to overcome a barrier and still deliver when impacting the BG. For example passing through an extended forearm before impacting the heavy winter coat. Or a car door or windshield? This is where the .45 has problems. IMHO

I've heard some people say that on the .40, the S&W stands for "SheetMetal & Windshields"

 

[mete]

Much of this penetration depends on bullet design. The best windshield and sheetmetal penetrator apparently is the Corbon DPX [Barnes all copper bullet.

In my experience with feral dogs and woodchucks there is no difference.In police shootings it doesn't seem to matter either ,both do the job well.

 

[xtarheel]

My understanding is that the old British .380-200 failed miserably on paper, but killed a lot of Germans. I would think it comes down to shot placement more than power.

 

[mljdeckard]

I think that the real world difference is limited. Particularly when using premium JHP bullets.

However, when we are talking about pistols, they are all inferior stopping tools. When you are fighting for your life, you need all the advantages you can get. No matter how you do the math, a .45 is going to make a bigger hole than a .40.

 

[nathan]

HE who makes the first draw and hits the target, wins !

 

[ColeK]

I'm old school, a 1911 .45 APC for me.

 

[golden]

.40 S&W with 155 or 165 grain hollow points

It is a small tradeoff between more power (the .45ACP) and more ammo.

Personally, I would go with a .40 S&W using the 155 grain hollow points my agency issues (REMINGTON or FEDERAL). You get MORE POWER and MORE AMMO CAPACITY. A WIN-WIN.

Jim

 

[Diggers]

.40 180 grain going 1159 fps? What ammo is this?

I carry .40 180 grain HPs at work and I'm pretty sure they move at about 950 fps.

 

[C-grunt]

Does energy matter?


It does seem that the calibers with greater energy (.357magnum, .45ACP, .40S&W, .357Sig, 10mm) are more effective than calibers with less energy (.22LR from a pistol, .25ACP, .32HR, .380, .38Special, 9mm).

I would say that with modern ammunition and the same shot placement the .357 wouldnt outclass the .38 or 9mm with the same grain bullet that much. It would probably get a little more penetration but I bet the results would be fairly similar.

A round needs a balance of Diameter, Mass, and Speed to be a good self defense choice. Your first list has rounds that all meet theses requirements. The second list, aside from the .38 and 9mm (which I think dont belong there), do not. Thats why they are less effective, not because they have less energy.

 

[Walkalong]

Pick the one you like. I like .45.

 

[Mike J]

I'm no expert but I believe you should use the gun you shoot best. If you have .40 & .45 in the same platform you could spend a day at the range shooting both comparing advantages-disadvantages of the two to decide which works best for you. I wouldn't want either pointed at me.

 

[Zundfolge]

Really this comes down to the old "software vs hardware" debate.

Frankly either is going to suck as bad as any handgun caliber in a real self defense situation (but packing a 12ga loaded with slugs is just not practical).

Mindset and training are more important.


Full Disclosure: I pack a Steyr S40 in .40 loaded with 165gr Gold Dots. I shoot it well, that's all that really matters

 

[bakert]

Like Walkalong, I'll just stick with the .45