.40 vs .45 / Stopping Power

[finalcut]

Any good studies or reviews on the subject of the difference of .40 vs .45 stopping power?

I'm interested in this. My general impression is that there is little or no difference if the .40 is loaded with the right stuff....

If you have any web links to some good info please include.

 

[mavracer]

All of these tests were done using 10% ballistic gelatin provided by Vyse gelatin using all FBI protocols and 4 layers of denim and two layers of light cotton T-shirt in front of the gelatin.
DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68"
DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"

www.doubletapammo.com

all modern 40 is hot, some 45 is not. premium 45 will always out perform .40s
but never I repete never enough to overcome poor accuracy.a .32acp COM is better than a 50 bmg miss

 

[ARTiger]

230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"

Now that's a .45 load!

 

[mavracer]

230 doubletap

ya its nasty, not +p, accurate, little to no flash from 5" gun and wacks stuf

 

[High Planes Drifter]

Thats a Very impressive .45 load mavracer. I added the Double Tap website to my fav's.

 

[BB93YJ]

That 230gr. DT .45ACP load is a good 'un. Sure does have a different feel than good old winchester white box stuff when you touch it off. Slaps the steel plates down pronto, fwiw. Will probably do the same to a badguy, assuming good placement. But then, so will a good shot or three from any good .40 S&W loads, for that matter.

I don't ever want to be on the receiving end of any of those loads, thank you.

 

[tostada]

That looks too good to be true, but it is their best seller.

Who did the testing? If it was the manufacturer, does anybody have 3rd party testing of it?

 

[Geronimo45]

Mavracer - where did you find that data? Not denying authenticity or anything - just curious where to find more info on DoubleTap's loads - especially the 165 grain .45 ACP load - which goes around 1,325 FPS. Think that's in the range of .357 Magnum loadings... and it'd be interesting to see how it works.

230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"

A .45 slug from a 1911 ends up making a hole bigger than a 12-gauge shotgun slug?

I like it.

 

[CPshooter]

I consider them equals for the most part. Keep in mind that you will not get anything near those numbers in sub 4" barrels with the .45acp. The .40, however, will still perform quite well under those circumstances. Under ideal conditions with ideal loads for both calibers, I'd say the .45 has a SLIGHT edge in overall wound cavity volume... but "stopping power"... probably the same.

 

[S&Wfan]

.45acp

 

[Lonestar49]

...

Tough call IMO, but as mentioned shot placement wins the day period.

But, the 40cal has more snap/recoil but offers more ammo per magazine in most cases.

45cal, has no snap, pure joy to shoot, and even with, in my case, 10 rounds max, I'd go 45cal, bar-none, as you can shoot them rapid, and straight (with the Gold Dot +P 230gr JHP) way faster than a 40cal ( at least speaking for my Beretta 40cal) using either, Cor Bon 165gr JHP or Hornady 155gr TAP FPD/JHP, or Federal 165gr Hydra-Shok JHP, as it takes a wee bit longer to settle down for each shot.

IMHO


LS

 

[LightningJoe]

My belief is that handgun stopping power results mainly from psychological effects rather than physical ones, so .40 should perform identically to .45.

 

[mavracer]

mike posts this info on www.10mmtalk.com he is a sponsor of that forum I have not chronoed the 230 45 load but his 9mm +p 124 GD averaged 1314fps from my p89 and his 38+p 125 GD load averaged 1098fps from my 442.which are both right on his data.I would assume his 45 load is the same.BTW if ya like his 45 loads check out his 10mm loads esp. that 165 GD.
I've asked the match director in IDPA since I have to shoot my 10 in ESP with 9mm and 125 power factor floor if I use doubletap 200 XTP load if I can just shoot targets 1 time instead of twice since it has a 250 PF
All of these tests were done using 10% ballistic gelatin provided by Vyse gelatin using all FBI protocols and 4 layers of denim and two layers of light cotton T-shirt in front of the gelatin
DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

 

[daysleeprx]

DoubleTap is good stuff...my 1911s are loaded with it.

 

[Man With A Gun]

State Trooper Shootings

One of my clients is reports to the NATIONAL STATE TROOPERS ASSOCIATION which colleccts and tracks police involved shootings.

The 9mm was the darling and got even better with HP + loads

Alas, it was too little too late for some which went to the .40 cals and recorded one shot stops consistantly.

The .45ACP was always a good performer and NOW, many agencies are going ( have gone ) to the .45 GAP. Too soon to have data returning on it BUT the Troopers seem to like it.

Personally, I love my 9mm in certain pistols, carry .40's in BHP and H&K P2000's and have just started carrying a GLOCK 21 SF .45ACP for the hell of it.

All I carry a pistol for is to keep me alive until I can get to my 12 ga shotgun.....then we dance.

 

[cherryriver]

I hate to go into the stopping power thing, but it so happens I have two good friends who are current or former SWAT commanders in two far-apart very active units, plus one is a shift commander in a department that has about nine police shootings a year (i.e., they shoot nine suspects in an average year) and gets to participate in the investigations. The other is a departmental training officer and has an office full of police shooting videos and reports. I mean, by the hundreds.
Both say, from their actual field experience, that there is little to choose between .40 and .45 when loaded with good ammunition. Both prefer Speer Gold Dots.
Neither finds the 9mm satisfactory in police use and both of their departments now do not allow anything other than .40 or .45 for a primary sidearm. One of them found himself in a fight wherein the 9mm failed him and he was nearly killed. In subsequent fights, he used the .40 to good effect. Consider him a convert. He normally uses a .40 on duty for interchange purposes and a .45 off duty.
Like in my own trade, I tend to favor the longer-term results of experience and so, while shot placement still rules in the relatively low-powered world of the handgun, I pretty much put my stakes on the .45.
Bill

 

[cookekdjr]

premium 45 will always out perform .40s
That is not my experience. Maybe on paper that's the case, but I've reviewed too many shootings in my job to accept that. I personally do not shoot .40 as well as I shoot 9mm or .45 (YMMV) but I have found that .40 stops people as well as any handgun cartridge. When I reviewed hundreds of shootings every year, I never had .40 fail to stop someone. That includes fmj loads. I consider .40, .45, and .357 to be roughly equal when using typical defensive ammo.
-David

 

[wheel]

The new Federal HST's are the next generation (replacing Hydrashok) and out perform almost everything in all the tests I've seen.

http://www.le.atk.com/pdf/PortlandWoundBallisticReport1.pdf

Given the same mag capacity, I vote for .45 over .40. Better stopping power, same recoil, but due to its shape it's easier to feed, less likely to jam.

 

[tostada]

it so happens I have two good friends who are current or former SWAT commanders in two far-apart very active units

(Art's Grammaw removed irrelevant "stuff".)

You've given a lot of setup to try to make yourself look credible, but you have given no actual facts that could even be verified. What if you do know SWAT commanders? Let's spend some time on statements that have meaning. What evidence did they give you? What was the process that lead them to their conclusions?

One of them found himself in a fight wherein the 9mm failed him and he was nearly killed. In subsequent fights, he used the .40 to good effect.

(Grammaw wuz here.)

Maybe it's true. I mean, didn't the NY State Police switch to .45 GAP because a mortally wounded cop shot a BG in a car in the arm with a 9mm and the BG didn't die instantly?

(And again.)

 

[N3rday]

The difference in stopping power is negligible. I would say that even when we argue 9mm vs. .45, the difference in stopping power is still pretty negligible if we're using premium defensive loads.

 

[benzslrpee]

the same, no such thing as stopping power. just because it's a .45 doesn't mean the attacker is gonna drop like a sack of potatoes if you shoot them in the foot, and i highly doubt anyone will feel like getting up with .40 straight into their noggin...or a 9mm for that matter of fact.

bullet stats are kinda like the EPA estimated mpg on cars...useless. so is that whole "ft/lbs" of force deal that a lot of people believe translates to force. unfortunately in the whole pistol shooting process the only person that will feel the force is the shooter not the...uhh...shootee. for hand guns, the bullet will only accelerate the barrels length, once it exits the barrel it maintains constant velocity which means there is no force since Force = mass * acceleration. none of that flying back 10 ft you see in Hollywood movies.

so yeah, .40 and .45 will be the same.

 

[Plink]

230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"

Now that's a .45 load!

You should see it perform from a short barrel. It scoots at about 950 f/s from my 3.5 inch barrelled Bersa. That's at non +P pressures. That's pretty much the performance of +P loads in a 5 inch barreled gun, but in mini size. It's my carry load of choice. Quite accurate too.

When I reviewed hundreds of shootings every year, I never had .40 fail to stop someone.

That's because those shots were placed properly. If the shot isn't placed right, or lacks the penetration to get deep enough into the vitals, it doesn't matter what caliber it is.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Not to be a wet blanket

tostada

This being The High Road, we kind of have this courtesy and manners thing that we like to encourage.

In general we discourage abrasive discourse, as it really accomplishes little, generating more heat than light.

You might want to avoid engaging in a style that could permit people to mistake you for a jerk.

A slight adjustment will make your stay here much more comfortable.

 

[Autolycus]

ArfinGreebly: You took the words right out of my mouth.

Either way I prefer .40 S&W as it has good expansion. I am ok with 9mm and I like .45 ACP as well.

But for carry and personal defense I think all will do fine. My opinion overall is that the .40 S&W is the perfect balance of capacity and firepower.

I do have preferences though. I like my .40 S&W in HK's, my .45 ACP guns would be 1911's, and my 9mm in Sigs or Glocks.

So my advice is to go with a .40 S&W rather than the .45 ACP.

 

[Michigunner]

ArfinGreebly: Perfectly said. Thank you.