.416 Rem Mag for elk?

[Powerstroke505]

hello all,

My cousin Bill and I are going elk hunting together in December ( he got a bull tag and I got a cow tag), while preparing for this hunt (I was planning on taking my M70 300 win mag w/180 gr accubond) we got to talking about my 416 rem mag Model 70 Winchester. We got to talking and I said maybe I’ll take it, on the hunt instead. He laughed and said I’d mutilate the elk. So I dropped the subject.

But then I got to thinking if I loaded up some 300gr Barnes TSX ( .298 B.C.) to 2700 FPS, zeroed to 250 yards, I’d be 4 in high at 100 yards and 5 in low at 300 yards. The area I’m hunting is fairly dense and I don’t see a shot going beyond 300 yards. Not exactly flat shooting but would work, i think.

So would that be way too much gun and blow the elk away (like Dirty Harry shooting bad guys with his 44 mag) or would I be correct in assuming the elk wouldn’t know the difference?

FYI I can shoot this rifle acccuratley and comfortably, as long as I’m standing or kneeling. It’s also my favorite rifle.

Suggestions, comments, concerns, jokes, etc. are welcome.



Picture: right to left, 45 ACP, 357 Mag, 223 Rem, 243 Win, 270 Win, 300 Win Mag and 416 Rem Mag

 

[MTMilitiaman]

It's more recoil than most people would want to deal with for elk, but if you can shoot it accurately, there is no reason not too.

 

[MCMXI]

FYI I can shoot this rifle acccuratley and comfortably, as long as I’m standing or kneeling. It’s also my favorite rifle.

Seems like a no brainer.... unless the elk are beyond the effective range of the rifle/load/optics or your abilities with that combination. 500 yard shots are not unusual up here and might be required in order to be successful but it might be different in NM.

As far as using a .416 Rem Mag for elk I see no downside in terms of terminal ballistics. I use a .375 H&H for everything and it drops anything it hits with no tracking required, but like you I shoot my rifle well and it's my favorite so it's the one I use.

 

[Powerstroke505]

You are correct, most areas I hunted elk in NM were open/flat and 500 yards is not unusual (normally I use 300 Win Mag) but this particular area is quite dense. My only real concern is what the bullet will do, would it expand as it should? I would think bullets that are designed for large dangerous game would expand differently on an elk. In either case I don’t see the elk walking away from a properly placed shot.

 

[MachIVshooter]

For those of us who live in elk country and regularly hunt them, .243-.300 win mag are what you'll encounter in camps most of the time. A handful of .338s, the occasional .375. I've never known anyone who drug along a .4-something dangerous game rifle for wapiti.

I use a .25-06 or my 8mm rem mag, the latter of which is really overkill, but insurance for the really long shots on that bull you don't pass up. My sister uses a .280. Friends take .257 Weatherby, .270, 7mm-08, 7mm mag, .308, .30-06, .300 win mag, .300 wsm, and I know one who usually carries a .338 win mag.

Totally your call, and .416 rem mag will certainly put the animal down, but I think I'd be more inclined to take advantage of the .300 mag's trajectory, and the ability of every shooter I've ever known to be more accurate with a lighter recoiling rifle.

 

[MCMXI]

My only real concern is what the bullet will do, would it expand as it should? I would think bullets that are designed for large dangerous game would expand differently on an elk. In either case I don’t see the elk walking away from a properly placed shot.

A Barnes 350gr TTSX at around 2,550 fps should do the trick. I shoot a Barnes 250gr TTSX in my .375 H&H at 2,800 fps and it has proven to be extremely accurate and very effective.

 

[ontarget]

No such thing as too much gun. If you are comfortable with it by all means use it. Animals really don't explode if hit by a bullet larger than .30 cal.

 

[MCMXI]

and the ability of every shooter I've ever known to be more accurate with a lighter recoiling rifle.

This is a common but erroneous argument when it comes to hunting. I'd rather hunt elk with a .300 WM that I shoot consistently sub moa rather than a 6.5 CM that I shoot consistently 0.5 moa. I'll happily give up an acceptable amount of accuracy and precision (maybe 0.5 moa) in favor of mass, energy and penetration because it buys margin that lighter bullets don't offer. But it turns out that you can have both with practice and that's the problem. Many base their assumptions on the merits of magnums because of "bubba" who shows up the weekend before hunting season with a new magnum rifle, a box of ammo, lots of opinions but not much else.

 

[Powerstroke505]

I shoot my 416 as well as my 300 win mag, 270 win, etc. from standing or kneeling positions (hunting accuracy) to 300 yards. From the bench or prone there is no way, recoil is definitely brutal in those positions unless I use a lead sled or equivalent. standing or kneeling I use the rifle sling and a shooting shirt (padded). It also helps that all my rifles are pretty much the same walnut stocked M70's, with the same recoil pads on all of them. So to me shooting my 270 is no different than shooting my 416, obviously there is more recoil but once you get over the recoil its really not difficult. I don't shoot 1 or 2 rounds through it, I shoot 15-30 rounds per range session. If the terrain were more open/flat no doubt I would take the 300 win mag and take my shot, prone with bipod, to 500 yards comfortably. Not trying to argue or boast, just trying to give you a better idea of who I am.

Also every rifle I own I have fitted to me, recoil padded, glass/pillar bedded, scope rings lapped, trigger set to the same weight, etc. and hand load for each.

 

[Riomouse911]

If you can shoot it well at the ranges you are likely to encounter, nothing's wrong with the .416. It's a lot of gun, and I bet Ol' Elmer Keith's spirit will nod his head a bit when he hears the shot echoing down the canyon...

 

[LoonWulf]

its your favorite rifle! If you dont need the range capabilities of the 300 TAKE IT!

Also, you said your shooting mono metals. Ive never seen horrible wounding from one of those, even driven well beyond what the .416s capable of.

 

[Powerstroke505]

Seems like a no brainer.... unless the elk are beyond the effective range of the rifle/load/optics or your abilities with that combination. 500 yard shots are not unusual up here and might be required in order to be successful but it might be different in NM.

As far as using a .416 Rem Mag for elk I see no downside in terms of terminal ballistics. I use a .375 H&H for everything and it drops anything it hits with no tracking required, but like you I shoot my rifle well and it's my favorite so it's the one I use.

A Barnes 350gr TTSX at around 2,550 fps should do the trick. I shoot a Barnes 250gr TTSX in my .375 H&H at 2,800 fps and it has proven to be extremely accurate and very effective.

I originally wanted a 375 H&H but couldn't find one locally ( not a big market for big bores here), a friend of ours (years ago) invited us on a buffalo hunt (exotic game ranch in sweetwater, TX) whenever we wanted, so I told him we would come down as soon as I bought a rifle. This 416 was in a LGS for over a year, until finally the owner said he wanted it gone. I bought it, shot it with iron sights and took one big beast with a single shot. I later put a scope on it and got better with it. I carry it w/o the scope every year when accompanying friends/family on hunts.

I had some 300 gr tax and just ordered the 350 ttsx, Ill try both as soon as I get the rifle back from my gunsmith.

 

[MachIVshooter]

This is a common but erroneous argument when it comes to hunting. I'd rather hunt elk with a .300 WM that I shoot consistently sub moa rather than a 6.5 CM that I shoot consistently 0.5 moa.

Interesting to call it erroneous while reinforcing the point of it.

I never said one should use an inadequate caliber because they shoot better with it, only that lighter recoil promotes greater accuracy. If you shoot the big magnum well enough for the task at hand, by all means, use it. Doesn't change anything about my statement. That said, I don't know anyone who can relax their body enough behind a big boomer to take an ethical 500+ yard shot at a game animal. OP himself tacitly told us he doesn't shoot the .416 RM prone ("I can shoot this rifle acccuratley and comfortably, as long as I’m standing or kneeling"). I wouldn't take a shot that long without a solid rest or bi-pod, sitting or prone.

I'll happily give up an acceptable amount of accuracy and precision (maybe 0.5 moa) in favor of mass, energy and penetration because it buys margin that lighter bullets don't offer. But it turns out that you can have both with practice and that's the problem.

And therin lies the balance. I shoot my .25-06 better than my 8mm rem mag, but I shoot the 8 mag well enough to hunt at long range if needed. My .375 RUM? If I settle my body enough to take that 500 yard shot, It's liable to bite me, and I know it.

OP just has to use his judgement, but needs to seriously consider his accuracy potential with the more-than-adequate .300 win mag before possibly handicapping his range or taking unethical shots with a cape buffalo gun.

 

[VoodooMountain]

There was a guy when I was growing up who shot deer with his big boomer of a rifle simply because it was his favorite rifle, he was comfortable with it, and recoil didn’t bother him.

His rifle was either a 375 H&H or a 416. I have forgotten over the years.
His deer didn’t die any faster or more emphatically but he loved it.

Point is that if you are comfortable with it then use it.

 

[natman]

If you chose the proper bullet you won't have any problem with "mutilating" the elk. Recoil will be more than you may want to put up with, but the real problem is weight if the terrain where you'll be hunting elk is anything like where I've hunted elk. Hauling a 9+ lb rifle up mountainsides will get old fast. If a 416 rifle is light enough to carry in elk country, recoil will definitely be a problem.

Otherwise go for it.

 

[jmr40]

Hunting is what we do for fun. Use the rifle that YOU enjoy hunting with. But hunters are killing elk at 1/2 mile with 243's and 6.5's. It is getting hard to convince me that anyone NEEDS anything bigger than a 308 to hunt anything in North America.

 

[Powerstroke505]

I appreciate all the replies. I know a 416 rem mag is not the first choice for elk. I started hunting elk years ago with my 270 Win using 150 gr partitions with great results, I just kept the distance reasonable (250 yards or less). I wanted the 300 win mag so I could comfortably extend that range to 500 yards, I have taken quite a few elk with it.

Like I said, the area (of Vermejo Park, NM) I'm hunting is quite dense, and shots will be no longer than 300 yards. I've hunted other areas of this ranch where 500+ yards is possible but not in this years area.

I can shoot the 416 accurately prone but not so comfortably, maybe 1 or 2 shots. But not being able to roll with the recoil gets old fast. The bench/lead sled is used for zeroing/load development.

I am not trying to come off as someone who is impervious to recoil, theres no ignoring 50+ lbs of recoil, but one can lear to control it.

 

[MCMXI]

Interesting to call it erroneous while reinforcing the point of it.

Actually, my example wasn't applicable to me but a general case to illustrate the point that you can obsess over precision and accuracy as though hunting were benchrest shooting. I shoot my .375 H&H as well as if not better than I shoot my gf's Kimber 84M chambered in .308 Win. I typically shoot 5-shot groups in the sub 0.75 moa range with my gf's 84M but am in the 0.65 moa range with my .375 H&H. The bigger 8400 fits me better than the "toyish" 84M. Regardless, my main point is that choosing a suitable rifle, cartridge, bullet, and optic combination isn't just about choosing the one that you shoot best, it should be about the whole package which includes the terminal effects of the bulletd being used and even giving up some precision and accuracy in favor of superior terminal effects.

But hunters are killing elk at 1/2 mile with 243's and 6.5's

A coworker went on a paid hunt six weeks ago in CO and another client hunting that day shot an elk at around 500 yards with a 6.5 Grendel. The elk tumbled down a steep rocky slope, got up and walked off into a heavily wooded area. There was blood and hair at the location where the elk got up but they never found the elk. There are too many hunters obsessed with the 6.5 mm cartridges and believe all of the recent hype surrounding them. They look to the PRS and ringing steel at 1,200 yards with 6mm and 6.5mm bullets and figure that they can do the same with an elk.

 

[.308 Norma]

His rifle was either a 375 H&H or a 416. I have forgotten over the years.

Ha! Now you've gone and made me feel old, VoodooMountain. When you were "growing up" an old guy you knew used either a 375 H&H or a 416? I was over 40 years old before the .416 Rem Mag was introduced. It was introduced in 1988 or 1989. Dang, I'm old!
Just kidding around. The "old guy" was probably using a .375 H&H. A .375 H&H is yet another rifle I have no realistic use for, yet I'd love to have one. A .416 Rem Mag - not so much. I shot a .416 Rem Mag once (actually 3 times) and it kicked too hard for my taste.

 

[horsey300]

Actually, my example wasn't applicable to me but a general case to illustrate the point that you can obsess over precision and accuracy as though hunting were benchrest shooting. I shoot my .375 H&H as well as if not better than I shoot my gf's Kimber 84M chambered in .308 Win. I typically shoot 5-shot groups in the sub 0.75 moa range with my gf's 84M but am in the 0.65 moa range with my .375 H&H. The bigger 8400 fits me better than the "toyish" 84M. Regardless, my main point is that choosing a suitable rifle, cartridge, bullet, and optic combination isn't just about choosing the one that you shoot best, it should be about the whole package which includes the terminal effects of the bulletd being used and even giving up some precision and accuracy in favor of superior terminal effects.



A coworker went on a paid hunt six weeks ago in CO and another client hunting that day shot an elk at around 500 yards with a 6.5 Grendel. The elk tumbled down a steep rocky slope, got up and walked off into a heavily wooded area. There was blood and hair at the location where the elk got up but they never found the elk. There are too many hunters obsessed with the 6.5 mm cartridges and believe all of the recent hype surrounding them. They look to the PRS and ringing steel at 1,200 yards with 6mm and 6.5mm bullets and figure that they can do the same with an elk.

There's no way a Grendel can punch an effective elk load out to 500 yds, but the .264 wm is still capable, there are plenty of lower recoil, smaller diameter chamberings that will fit the bill, and grouping them in with a moron who loses an elk to a long shot on a Grendel is not appropriate. If a person can and chooses to shoot the .375 or .416 well enough to anchor game, then it's just as appropriate for the hunt as the 6.5 Swede. I think the concern of decimating the quarry is nullified with the use of a bullet such as the Barnes.

 

[MCMXI]

There's no way a Grendel can punch an effective elk load out to 500 yds, but the .264 wm is still capable, there are plenty of lower recoil, smaller diameter chamberings that will fit the bill, and grouping them in with a moron who loses an elk to a long shot on a Grendel is not appropriate.

Good point about the caliber .... and my comment is directed more at the recent fad of short action 6mm and 6.5mm cartridges for long range hunting. I'm constantly learning as I go and I've started to rethink my choice of .375 H&H given the kind of conditions that we hunt elk up here in NW Montana where 500+ yard shots are the norm if an elk hunt is to be successful. I'm going to run the numbers and see if I need to think about using a different cartridge for elk. I'd be very interested in stepping down in bullet weight from the current 250gr TTSX that I'm shooting at 2,800 fps but it seems that no one makes a lighter bullet for the .375 H&H that's appropriate for hunting. A copper 200gr would be awesome since it would probably be long enough to offer decent stability and I could push it to 3,000 fps or more which would extend my effective range with the Talkeetna.

I still don't understand why the guide allowed a client to use a 6.5 Grendel for elk .... crazy!

Added in Edit: Now I'm looking at the Nosler 260gr AccuBond for my .375 H&H which will offer better expansion at 600 yards compared to a Barnes TTSX. Running the numbers, the AccuBond will have a velocity in excess of 1,800 fps at 600 yards which is still fast enough for good expansion. The Barnes 250gr TTSX needs 2,000 fps to expand which limits it to around 450 yards.

 

[Robert]

375H&H is easily a 500 yard rifle. It may not but super flat but it will get there and still have plenty of accuracy and power. A little load development and practice is all it takes.

 

[mjsdwash]

if it shoots flat, and it looks like it does, it comes down to recoil. I wouldn't worry about the caliber.

 

[Milt1]

If you've ever tasted Elk steak you know how wonderful it is. Take whichever rifle that you feel will put that Elk down right now! I think every hunter, when looking at a big bull Elk will wonder, regardless if what their rifle is chambered for, if they have enough rifle. Good luck with your 416!

 

[MCMXI]

375H&H is easily a 500 yard rifle. It may not but super flat but it will get there and still have plenty of accuracy and power. A little load development and practice is all it takes.

@Robert , a bit off topic but what bullet do you use for hunting with your .375 H&H? I'm using a Barnes 250gr TTSX (BCG1 = 0.424) and velocity is marginal for reliable expansion at 500 yards. If I could find a bonded bullet that has a similar BC and similar precision/accuarcy but one that requires less velocity to expand I'd be interested.