.416 Remington Magnum vs. .458 Lott

[Pigoutultra]

They are both based on the .375 H&H magnum pushed to the limits. The .416 is a little flatter shooting, but the .458 has better SD. I want to get a big bore safari rifle, but I'm stuck on which cartridge to get. I don't know of any rifle's currently chambered in the .416 though it wouldn't be that hard to rechamber an american safari magnum to it. What are your opinions on this dilemma?

 

[MachIVshooter]

"Flat shooting" is not a phrase typically associated with either of these cartridges.

The Lott hits a quite a bit harder on both ends. Both are expensive to feed.

I guess that doesn't really help you decide, sorry. Both are really dedicated short to moderate range dangerous game cartridges. It depends on your recoil limit more than anything.

 

[Pigoutultra]

I forgot to mention that a trip to africa is very unlikely for me. This would just be a fun thumper gun. So basically that sort of narrows it down to .458 due to the wider variety of bullets available cheap. But if I ever do become financially able to go to africa, I would like a gun that is suitable for everything, so that narrows it down to .416. You see the dilemma?

 

[Guy de Loimbard]

If you are only looking for a fun thumper gun, I would suggest looking for a .45-70. If you don't reload, ammo availability is greater, and if you do, components will be cheaper.

And if you do go to Africa, it is suitable for everything.

 

[Pigoutultra]

I don't think that the .45-70 is suitable for everything. I may be capable of everything, but so is the .30-06.

 

[Dain Bramage]

I buy lottery tickets every once in a while. I'm an engineer, took higher math in college. I understand odds. I'm not an idiot.

I consider the few bucks I spend fair pay for a decent daydream.

Buy the .416. As a "fun thumper", how often would you shoot it anyway? Consider expensive ammo the cost for keeping the Africa dream alive.

 

[Pigoutultra]

Probably not that often, maybe once or twice a month for about 20 rounds.

 

[Guy de Loimbard]

I found an article written by Vince Lupo which may interest you.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/lupo/lupo.htm
He used .45-70 (a Marlin Guide Gun) to take the African Big Six.

 

[Pigoutultra]

I've already read that article. I posted a few months ago about safari leverguns and it was agreed upon that there is no leveraction cartridge suitable for african dangerous game.

 

[saturno_v]

Pigoutultra



I'm exactly in your same situation...I will never do a safari, I'm not even an hunter but for collecting purposes I want a big elephant rifle.
I'm waiting for the right (pricewise) 458 Lott to come under my nose (I'm pretty sure it will be a CZ Safari)
I like the 458 because:

- Bigger caliber, bigger oomph...I will shoot it very rarely, why not going all the way??

- WIth a 458 Lott rifle you can also fire the more economical and easier to find 458 Winchester Magnum cartridge.

If you are only looking for a fun thumper gun, I would suggest looking for a .45-70. If you don't reload, ammo availability is greater, and if you do, components will be cheaper.

And if you do go to Africa, it is suitable for everything.

A 45-70 is on my purchasing list too (Marln lever) but, sorry, it ain't an Elephant cartridge....

 

[highlander 5]

Get a Ruger M77 in 416 Rigby you'll be better off. Granted the rifle and ammo is expensive,but the Rigby operates at a much lower pressure level so if you ever do go to Africa you won't have the problems that the Remington and Lott rounds can give. I've never been a big fan of most cartridges that have a belt,300 and 375 H&H are the exceptions. The 416 Rigby launches a 400 gr bullet at 22 or 2300 fps how much more horse power do you need?
416 Rigby brass can be made from 460 Weatherby brass by removing the belt.
IIRC CZ make a 416 Rigby as well. And if you do make it to Africa 416 Rigby will probably a lot easier to find than the 416 Rem and 458 Lott.

 

[Hizzie]

In "Dangerous Game Rifles" Terry Wieland considers the .458 Lott to be the most versatile of all the Dangerous Game calibers. Wide selection of bullets, ability to down load to 45/70 levels, 350gr TSX's for longer range plains game, ect. He prints that if he could have but 1 rifle it would be a Lott.

He also despises the 416 Rem.

I too have tossed the idea of getting a truly big bore but $$$ plays a role since I don't handload I will have to settle for a .375 H&H.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I don't think that the .45-70 is suitable for everything. I may be capable of everything, but so is the .30-06.

It is at reasonable ranges. It just has a rainbow trajectory. You would have a lot more fun with a Marlin 1895, though.

If you want a gun with both range and raw power, you need to be looking at the two big .375's; The .375 RUM and the .378 Weatherby. Both will push near 6,000 ft/lbs (like the .458 Lott), and both have a trajectory similar to a .270, but with twice the bullet. They're also quite nasty to shoot from the bench due to their high velocity with those big pills. My 700 BDL SS .375 RUM, at 7.5 lbs, comes back with a calculated free recoil of 83 ft/lbs at 26 FPS. To put that in perspective, a .30-06 of the same weight, firing a 180 grain bullet at 2,900 FPS, hits you with 28 ft/lbs at 15 FPS.

The .458 Lott is typically going to be found in heavier rifles (like the 10 pound CZ 550 Safari), so the recoil is a bit more tolerable, like about 70 ft/lbs at 20-22 MPH.

 

[saturno_v]

If you want a gun with both range and raw power, you need to be looking at the two big .375's; The .375 RUM and the .378 Weatherby. Both will push near 6,000 ft/lbs (like the .458 Lott), and both have a trajectory similar to a .270, but with twice the bullet. They're also quite nasty to shoot from the bench due to their high velocity with those big pills. My 700 BDL SS .375 RUM, at 7.5 lbs, comes back with a calculated free recoil of 83 ft/lbs at 26 FPS. To put that in perspective, a .30-06 of the same weight, firing a 180 grain bullet at 2,900 FPS, hits you with 28 ft/lbs at 15 FPS.

The .458 Lott is typically going to be found in heavier rifles (like the 10 pound CZ 550 Safari), so the recoil is a bit more tolerable, like about 70 ft/lbs at 20-22 MPH.

I think the big 375s are a kind of compromise...they do not have the oomph of the big "over 400" cannons at short distances nor they have the flat trajectories and extremely high SD of the super 338s....I generally like them as a concept but once I own already a 338 Win Mag, I will go for one the very big bores.

 

[Pigoutultra]

I think the big 375s are a kind of compromise...

The .375 H&H isn't really a compromise, it is the minimum and is most effective against plains game. The .416 Remington is the compromise between the .375 and the .458 Lott. Being good for both plains and dangerous game but not excellent for either.

 

[MachIVshooter]

they do not have the oomph of the big "over 400" cannons at short distances

I handload for the .375 RUM. A 300 gr. bullet over 99.1 grains IMR 4831 gave me 2,970 FPS for 5,877 ft/lbs. That's on par with or in excess of the "ooomph" any common "over .400" makes except the .416 and .460 Weatherby. It eclipses the .416 RM/Ruger/Rigby and .458 Win. Mag.

Nosler even lists a .375 RUM load with 96.0 grs. IMR7828 to push a 300 grainer at 3,026 for 6,100 ft/lbs.

nor they have the flat trajectories and extremely high SD of the super 338s

This is a fact, though the .375 CT is an exception to the rule. But it's also not found in sporting rifles, and the recoil would be extreme launching a 300 gr. bullet at 3,500 FPS in a < 10 lb gun.

Nonetheless, those two thumper .375's have pretty darn good trajectories.

I chose this cartridge precisely because it offered so much energy and still had a good trajectory. If it's not enough, I guess I'll be lugging around my 36 lb AR-50

 

[Pigoutultra]

This is a fact, though the .375 CT is an exception to the rule. But it's also not found in sporting rifles

It is my understanding that the .408 and .375 cheytac are based on the .505 Gibbs. It may be possible to convert a CZ Express to .375 CheyTac, though I can't find any oal specs on the cartridge so I can't be sure.

 

[Ruger745]

I would go with the 458 Lott since it does have the quality of having more power, but according to Hornady's reloading manual you can supposedly fire 458 Winchester magnum out of it as well essentially giving you two calibers.
If you're looking for a 416 Remington magnum, Winchester has resurrected the safari line in the 70 series
Here's the link if you want to take a look.

http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/catalog/detail.asp?family=001C&mid=535116

Hope this helps.

God created men. Samuel colt made them equal

 

[Pigoutultra]

I really don't get it. Why would they offer it in two magnum length actions and one standard length action? Why not offer it in .458 as well?

I really like the CZ 550 though, having an extra 2 rounds in the mag is pretty nice considering the power we are talking about.

 

[Ruger745]

I had the same thoughts when I looked on their website. I have to say, the CZ is a great looking gun, I had the opportunity to look at several when I was in Montana last summer and fell in love with almost all of them. I kind of wonder why their rifles aren't as popular as they should be since they seem to have equal quality of the Winchester 70, Remington 700 and Ruger 77 lines.

 

[saturno_v]

It is my understanding that the .408 and .375 cheytac are based on the .505 Gibbs.

I may be wrong but I suspect that the weight of the rifle capable of launching these 2 cartridges start to be an issue....the .408 Chey Tac rifle I saw was almost in the 50 BMG class as far as size and weight.

handload for the .375 RUM. A 300 gr. bullet over 99.1 grains IMR 4831 gave me 2,970 FPS for 5,877 ft/lbs. That's on par with or in excess of the "ooomph" any common "over .400" makes except the .416 and .460 Weatherby. It eclipses the .416 RM/Ruger/Rigby and .458 Win. Mag.

Nosler even lists a .375 RUM load with 96.0 grs. IMR7828 to push a 300 grainer at 3,026 for 6,100 ft/lbs.

However, they are still illegal in many countries for elephant hunting...you need a at least a .400 caliber in most places, so, from the collecting standpoint, nowdays they are not technically elephant guns even if, obviously, they have the power to take them.

 

[Pigoutultra]

If you take into consideration that the .408 Cheytac is based on the .505 Gibbs, it easy to see that there are safari rifles that could possibly chamber that cartridge. Ideally, I would neck up the .408 Cheytac to .416 and use flat nose solids at an incredible velocity of 2800 fps.

 

[Hizzie]

I would go with the 458 Lott since it does have the quality of having more power, but according to Hornady's reloading manual you can supposedly fire 458 Winchester magnum out of it as well essentially giving you two calibers.

God created men. Samuel colt made them equal

Kinda like using .38 Special in a .357 Magnum. The Lott is a Win Mag lengthened by .3" to increase powder capacity and decrease pressure.

 

[BusMaster007]

.458 LOTT only because it would be legal everywhere in Africa and its able to also chamber the .458 WIN.
Hard combo to beat.

 

[Robert]

470NE

Yeah it is more expensive so you will have to hand load but it is just better.

But if you chances of actually going to Africa are like mine, slim and none, just get a 45-70 and work up some heavy loads. It will thump you and anything in North America and do so without breaking the bank.