44 Mag: Seating Die Crushing HP Nose
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WrongHanded
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Yes, a FCD of some description. I know they vary between cartridges.
I do see what you mean about the expander length. It doesn't help that the 300gr A-Frame seat very deeply into the case. And I agree that the expander length is an issue. It seems there are potentially other issue too. But I'll have to look at potential replacements.
There may in fact be something a miss with your die(s) but contrary to what others have said, it is amazing that the dies work for thousands of others, myself included
Many posters are quick to bash Lee equipment when most often it is not the equipment at all.
I hope you get it figured out without all kinds of expense and crazy modifications.
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WrongHanded
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There may in fact be something a miss with your die(s) but contrary to what others have said, it is amazing that the dies work for thousands of others, myself included
Many posters are quick to bash Lee equipment when most often it is not the equipment at all.
I hope you get it figured out without all kinds of expense and crazy modifications.
Thanks, me too. I'm going to try lubing the new cases in some fashion, and a flat seating stem. Perhaps that will be all it takes.
.38 Special
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I would bet that the flat stem does the trick. If you decide to lube the cases (far too much trouble, in my opinion) you might consider a dry lube like mica (I occasionally use it on bottleneck cases) to avoid the mess and contamination issues possible with wet lubes.
Fatelvis
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You
Need to run one of these into your brass before you seat your bullet.
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/expanders/expander-plug-pistol/431-x-427-p-exp-plug/
Need to run one of these into your brass before you seat your bullet.
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/expanders/expander-plug-pistol/431-x-427-p-exp-plug/
Use your FCD die and do this:
Take a fired case and knock the primer out. "Do not size the case!!!!"
Take a bullet you plan on using as see if it will fit into the fired case, if the case needs flared to get the bullet to start then flare it and retest.
If you bullet will go into the fired "Unsized" case and has a little tension doing so or will take a little force to do so you're good to go.
Good to go ='s
Put a primer in that unsized fired case, put your powder in & seat the bullet with your seating die. Do not crimp anything!!!
Take and run that round up in your FCD die, it will size the case down with the bullet in it making excellent neck tension on the bullet.
Go out and test fire.
Blue68f100
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Bad idea, your loosing neck tension every time you swage the bullet down. The crimp is designed to keep the bullet from moving under recoil, The interface fit between the bullet and brass is what holds the bullet.
I would do a hot glue gun or epoxy mold to fit the bullet for your seating die stem. If you have oil on your plug and bullet it can be removed later on if needed.
Guess again!!! Nothing could be further from the truth. What you're saying only happens with oversized bullets and case "spring back". The op is using a .429" factory jacketed bullet.
It's too bad most reloads don't take the time to really understand what the equipment they buy actually does. Instructions on how to use a lee FCD
https://leeprecision.com/files/instruct/CFCD.pdf
Redding profile crimp dies do the same thing with strait walled cases like the 44mag
https://www.redding-reloading.com/online-catalog/31-profile-crimp-dies
How do you think the factory makes their ammo???? Any idea why some brass has a cannelure in it where the base of the bullet is??? Any idea how the factories can make such consistent ammo????
The watered down version:
They take a newly formed case and prime it, put powder in & flare at the same time. Then they seat the bullet. The last step is to run that round up into a FCD. This not only sizes the cartridge to the correct specs it puts neck tension on the bullet and crimps the bullet at the same time.
Only reloaders like us size the brass down just to have to open it back up (flare) to be able to seat a bullet then take remove the flare to hold the bullet in place.
That lee FCD has a carbide sizing die in the bottom of it for a reason!!!!
FROGO207
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I understand the factory has a custom expander die for each bullet length they use. I dont want to deal with that so I wax the bullet well fill the HP cavity with clay and use JB weld to make a custom seating stem from a spare. Least hassle option for me. I do want that extra tension that pushing the bullet into a too small case provides me. YMMV
If I was using soft lead bullets then the longer expander like forrest r is using would be a great option.
If I was using soft lead bullets then the longer expander like forrest r is using would be a great option.
Blue68f100
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You are saying to load a round without sizing it. That is not the correct way to load anything that I'm aware of. I know of NO hand loading manual that tells you to do this.
NMexJim
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WrongHanded
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I'm not crimping with the seating die. But good thought.
Blue68f100
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Starline Brass also recommends running a expander at a min to remove a preservative applied to the brass to prevent tarnishing. Use the expander that came with your die set.
Again nothing could be further from the truth. They deal with bullet diameter not profile
Soonerpesek
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New Starline brass has a coating on it, try dry tumbling for 20 min or so.
Even though it's new, it should still be full length sized, also...
That is because a factory doesn't use 1x, 2x, 10 fired brass. They make sure we don't harm ouselves by making us start over to undersized brass.
I understand this concept is hard to understand bbbbbbbbbbuuuuuuuuuutttttttttttttttt at the end of the day why in the heck do you think they call it a factory crimp die????????????
I've loaded countless 1000's of my home swaged jacketed bullets this way. Every 4th or 5th tumbling I'd knock the primers out and tumble the brass to clean the primer pockets. I'd take those un-sized cases and load them with the jacketed bullets and use a factory crimp die to make the reloads.
I wish more people would spend time thinking about what they are actually saying rather than parroting what they have herd.
This comes back to 1 of my initial questions.
Why would the factory put a cannelure in the brass at the base of the bullet???
The common answer is setback. But that is with semi-auto rely on the case mouth ammo. Why put a cannelure on 38spl wc ammo for example????
If you know the answer to this then you will know why lee calls that die a "Factory Crimp Die"
I put a link to the lee website with directions on what the fcd die does. Along with a redding profile crimp die. I know it's hard to understand but at the end of the day putting glue in a seating die stem is nothing more than a band aid.
Try fixing the problem
Blue68f100
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I learned to correct the problem at the source. He's having problem deforming the HP when seating the bullet. This can be caused by several things. Factory fresh Starline brass is squeaky clean. The also recommend running a expander die to remove it and straighten any dinged mouths. So he needs to remove/clean off the preservative applied at the factory to start with. Then he needs to determine how to support the bullet in such he does not deform the HP. If he things he has too much neck tension, that needs to be addressed. It may only require him to expand the case mouth more. It may require a slight flare of the mouth to accept the bullet. May require a custom seating stem. There are times when this is the best option. One fits all does not always work, This is why some mfg offer custom options. Once seated and all is good, he has 2 options for crimping. He can use the roll crimp that is built into the seating die, or FCD. In any case it's the last step in the process.
I have only 1 LFCD and I did not buy it. It was given to me by a good friend when he got in bad health (rip) and no longer could hand load. I have yet to use it. I may since it's for the 357 sig. I started hand loading way before the internet and the LFCD was made. So back then you had to analyze the problem and find a solution. All we had was books. Some had a mentor, some didn't. So if your the type that has to use the LFCD to make your ammo fit you have a lot to learn. If you use it only to crimp and not correct a problem, your using it right.
I have only 1 LFCD and I did not buy it. It was given to me by a good friend when he got in bad health (rip) and no longer could hand load. I have yet to use it. I may since it's for the 357 sig. I started hand loading way before the internet and the LFCD was made. So back then you had to analyze the problem and find a solution. All we had was books. Some had a mentor, some didn't. So if your the type that has to use the LFCD to make your ammo fit you have a lot to learn. If you use it only to crimp and not correct a problem, your using it right.
Interesting as usual.
Why does the factory (Gee I wonder why the name FACTORY is in the name of the tool???) crimp die have a carbide sizing ring in the bottom of it then???
I'm about done with this thread, tried to give the op some insight. But as usual others know best.
Glad you don't even know/only own 1/don't use a fcd but how to use what were taking about but are sooooooo sure of it's limitations.
For the rest of the people reading this thread that are having issues with deforming bullets noses. Simply try making 1 reload using your fcd in the manner I described with jacketed factory bullets only.
At the end of the the day I'll gladly go head to head with anyone on this website when it comes to reloading jacketed factory, lead, coated, swaged bullets along with my own swaged lead & jacketed bullets and cast coated bullets when it comes to what a reloading die can and can't do.
This is so typical of the parroting that goes on around the internet. A guy don't own them, was given one & don't like or use it but will gladly tell you how wrong you are when you actually state how that die was designed and what it actually does.
If you knew how the factory's made ammo you would be singing a different tune.
.38 Special
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They probably were hoping that folks might actually believe manufacturers use this die.
Score at least one point for their marketing department, apparently.
That's just it a factory crimp die is designed to crimp and do a full case size at the same time. Just like the factory does. Hard concept to understand apparently. If anyone bother to use the link to the lee FCD instructions they would see this at the top of page 1.
Factory Quality Reloads • Sizes case after crimping Trim Length not critical • Impossible to buckle case
99.999999%+ of the people on this website use a lee FCD die to fix issues with their reloading, mainly ironing out bulges so their reloads will chamber. They weren't designed for that purpose.
Factory Quality Reloads • Sizes case after crimping Trim Length not critical • Impossible to buckle case
99.999999%+ of the people on this website use a lee FCD die to fix issues with their reloading, mainly ironing out bulges so their reloads will chamber. They weren't designed for that purpose.
True, true, and true, but depending on the diameter of the carbide ring, and the brass, and the bullet diameter/type, it can cause issues as well, we don't get to pick the FCD to match our application, it's luck of the draw where our die falls in the allowed spread. I have never been a big post sizing FCD for pistols fan, and will not be going to the trouble of matching my components to the die I happen to get, not when I can get great results the old fashioned way.
I have had two FCD dies. My .40 S&W FCD barely touched my rounds (good), while my .45 ACP FCD was squeezing them pretty hard (bad).
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WrongHanded
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Update Time:
So, one of the machinists at work customized the two replacement seating dies I got from Lee.
On flattened, and the other re-profiled. The results?
1: Using new Starline brass that I tumbled but did not resize, with a mild flare the bullet sits in the case mouth.
2: Using the custom profile.
3: Unseated bullet sitting on a different case.
4: Using the flat faced seating die.
Although the flat die deformed the very crown of the HP, it did not reduce the size of the opening unlike the re-profiled custom die. So I decided to use that.
Now the bullet seated really pretty easily until this point:
Past that, the nose began to deform with either die.
The reason why? I think it's a compressed load. I just hadn't considered it until now, but no matter how much more pressure I added, I could only get the cannelure half way inside the case. The A-Frame seats deeply, and it's sitting on 21.0gr of 300-MP (may be over pressure, but used only in a Redhawk). So that's the best I'm going to get without changing the load.
Thanks for all the help guys. It'll probably do just okay like this. It's certainly as accurate as any .44 mag load I have. But I may just not buy any more of these particular bullets in this weight.
ETA:
A quick shot of the results I was getting, versus this batch after the changes:
So, one of the machinists at work customized the two replacement seating dies I got from Lee.
On flattened, and the other re-profiled. The results?
1: Using new Starline brass that I tumbled but did not resize, with a mild flare the bullet sits in the case mouth.
2: Using the custom profile.
3: Unseated bullet sitting on a different case.
4: Using the flat faced seating die.
Although the flat die deformed the very crown of the HP, it did not reduce the size of the opening unlike the re-profiled custom die. So I decided to use that.
Now the bullet seated really pretty easily until this point:
Past that, the nose began to deform with either die.
The reason why? I think it's a compressed load. I just hadn't considered it until now, but no matter how much more pressure I added, I could only get the cannelure half way inside the case. The A-Frame seats deeply, and it's sitting on 21.0gr of 300-MP (may be over pressure, but used only in a Redhawk). So that's the best I'm going to get without changing the load.
Thanks for all the help guys. It'll probably do just okay like this. It's certainly as accurate as any .44 mag load I have. But I may just not buy any more of these particular bullets in this weight.
ETA:
A quick shot of the results I was getting, versus this batch after the changes:
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