44 Mag: Seating Die Crushing HP Nose

[Fatelvis]

Try seating one of the bullets on an uncharged case. If it does seat without deforming, like you suspect, it’s time to lighten your powder charge, or go with a faster powder, to eliminate the compressed load. Good luck!

 

[DanK3Pos]

Thanks for sharing that. I actually had already seen that on their website. I just figured another die manufacturer might have done what Lee didn't, and make a seating plug that would do this job without customizing anything.

I suppose I may just go visit the machine shop at work. I don't what to mess with the original plug, but I might buy a replacement and see about drilling into that.

My RCBS 44 Mag dies don't do that and all I've loaded with them are XTPs. Dillon dies ship with reversible seater plugs with different profiles. IIRC, my .38/.357 dies came with 2 seater plugs, so 3 or 4 profiles. 9mm/40S&W/45ACP have round nose and flat point profiles.

 

[Charlie98]

That's one of the reasons I really don't like compressed loads. Walk, what kind of powder is 300MP? If it's a ball powder it may not compress very well... and that sounds like what you are seeing.

 

[black mamba]

DEFINITELY reduce your powder charge -- ball powders are NOT to be compressed.

 

[WrongHanded]

That's one of the reasons I really don't like compressed loads. Walk, what kind of powder is 300MP? If it's a ball powder it may not compress very well... and that sounds like what you are seeing.

It is a ball powder. And a slower burning one than H110. It also apparently doesn't need a magnum primer. I've used it a number of loads with good results. But for the 300gr A-frame data isn't easy to find. I did find something though, and it didn't mention it being a compressed load, but it sure seems like it is. I can't recall the chrono results but they were fairly tight in comparison to others I've worked up.

Here's where I got the data: https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/reloading-the-44-magnum/99155

I would have bought the Swift manual but as they haven't replied to my email, and want $39 and another $18 for shipping, I've been reluctant. I don't even know if that data is in there.

DEFINITELY reduce your powder charge -- ball powders are NOT to be compressed.

I had no idea that was an issue. What happens if they are compressed?

 

[bluejay75]

300 MP takes very well to compression. Not compressed to the point of deforming a bullet but every slow pistol powder I have tested did well with some compression EXCEPT Lil Gun. Manuals say you can do it but it has been over pressure in everything I have tried it in at the top end of the charge. If you have a Nosler manual every charge over 100% is a compressed charge.

 

[bluejay75]

Looking at the bullet you’re using the Hornady seater will work I’m almost 100 percent certain. They send them out ready to seat their FTX bullet or a flat stem for everything else.

You need to chamfer all your 44 brass. I only flare a case if I have to. Most times on well worn brass the tiniest bit of bevel at the base will let it seat.

See how far you can seat it out and still get a good crimp. If you chamfer then barely flare you can get away with a not so perfect crimp. Neck tension will hold it. If you want to stick with that load.

No matter what that’s going to be a handful.

 

[forrest r]

300 MP takes very well to compression. Not compressed to the point of deforming a bullet but every slow pistol powder I have tested did well with some compression EXCEPT Lil Gun. Manuals say you can do it but it has been over pressure in everything I have tried it in at the top end of the charge. If you have a Nosler manual every charge over 100% is a compressed charge.

I have no idea why but you mention compressed powder on this website and people tuck & roll.

 

[bluejay75]

In my testing, it seems that 1.5 more grains beyond H110 is about a mid range charge for 300MP if you ever need to extrapolate loads. 300 MP lights easier so you cant judge ignition by whether youre getting flash or not like with 296, H110 or Lil Gun. You need a chronograph to see if youre throwing wide velocity swing.
I posted the above to show that almost all slow powders listed are compressed charges so dont let that scare you. If you look at the same chart for pistol loads it shows a 133% 4227 load. Thats almost a full case of powder before you even start seating.
I WOULD NOT compress AA9 too much. It gets sporty on the top end.

But I think your charge is near max. I would seat the bullet where it stopped in your last photos on page 3 and go a touch deeper but not into the crimp groove then collet crimp the p*** out of it (Heavy Crimp).

 

[black mamba]

(see Norma Reloading Manual, 2013, pages 100 and 101)…

“…One of the disadvantages of a ball powder is that it must not be compressed. There must always be a small air gap between the powder and the projectile into which the initially generated gases expand. If the charge is compressed there can be pressure waves within it, of such a magnitude as to damage the weapon. Extruded powder can be compressed without any problems since the initial gases will always find space within the granules and between them. With ball powder the charge will be dense because it is compressed, and when ignited the charge will be driven, more or less, like a piston.

 

[bluejay75]

 

[bluejay75]

(see Norma Reloading Manual, 2013, pages 100 and 101)…

“…One of the disadvantages of a ball powder is that it must not be compressed. There must always be a small air gap between the powder and the projectile into which the initially generated gases expand. If the charge is compressed there can be pressure waves within it, of such a magnitude as to damage the weapon. Extruded powder can be compressed without any problems since the initial gases will always find space within the granules and between them. With ball powder the charge will be dense because it is compressed, and when ignited the charge will be driven, more or less, like a piston.

That is very true of fast ball powders. Im willing to bet a liefetime supply of beer that everytime you see a glock blow apart it had a compressed charge of fast powder in it. But on the slow side you can compress.

 

[forrest r]

(see Norma Reloading Manual, 2013, pages 100 and 101)…

“…One of the disadvantages of a ball powder is that it must not be compressed. There must always be a small air gap between the powder and the projectile into which the initially generated gases expand. If the charge is compressed there can be pressure waves within it, of such a magnitude as to damage the weapon. Extruded powder can be compressed without any problems since the initial gases will always find space within the granules and between them. With ball powder the charge will be dense because it is compressed, and when ignited the charge will be driven, more or less, like a piston.

You might want to give hodgdon a call and tell them they need to re-do their data for the H110, WW296 & h4227 powders. And why your at it you should tell them to quit putting this type of info on their website:

Normally a pistol or rifle shellcase is considered full, or 100% loading density, when the powder charge sits at the base of the bullet when the bullet is fully seated. It is possible with some powders and cartridges to increase the powder charge slightly above this point, such that when the bullet is seated it actually compresses the powder charge slightly. This condition is known as a compressed load.

Hodgdon notes in its reloading data if the subject charge is a compressed load. A full case, or lightly compressed charge is an ideal condition for creating loads with the most uniform velocities and pressures, and oftentimes, producing top accuracy.

https://hodgdon.com/faq-items/compressed-loads/

 

[Charlie98]

I have no idea why but you mention compressed powder on this website and people tuck & roll.

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but what the OP is experiencing sounds very much beyond a 'compressed powder.' I don't have either a .44MAG case, nor 300-MP powder to try to duplicate what he is experiencing, but looking at the deformation of the bullet using the flat seater plug... it sure looks like he is hitting a wall on compression. YMMV, of course, Superman.

 

[Walkalong]

I have never heard of compressed charges of the slow ball powders in .44 Mag being an issue, especially not blowing up guns, and plenty of tested loads from the powder/bullet companies are slightly compressed. As long as you can seat the bullet without spring back/mashing the bullet from back pressure, you're ok. Yes, mostly you need a mag primer.

What you don't want to do, in general, is download the slow ball powders for .44 Mag. Some worse than others. AA #9 is less finicky about it than some, but still performs best near the top.

 

[forrest r]

Odd don't see a big S on my chest but myself I've done a little testing with mp-300. But I do know enough to use a chronograph when testing compressed loads and watch for erratic/extreme velocity spreads.

I do like that people should be careful with ball powders and to use extruded powders that have granules in pistols.

The 1st thing I did when I decided to do a little testing was to buy 3# of it. and the #274 handloader magazine (oct-nov2011) where did a pretty impressive write-up using mp-300 in the 44mag along with the:
454 casull
41mag
357mag
327mag

I always like when articles like that uses multiple calibers along with multiple bullets (lead/jacketed/lite/heavy). It makes cross referencing extremely easy.

Oddly enough 1 of the bullets pearce tested in the 44mag was the 300gr xtp bullet. He tested loads of 20.0gr, 21.0gr & 22.0gr with a cartridge oal of 1.735".

That 22.0gr/300gr bullet did 1434fps with a impressively low es of 16fps in a 7 1/2" bbl'd blackhawk
IMHO:
I consider a 300gr bullet in the 44mag to be a "Heavy for caliber bullet"

It's common knowledge that when you use a lite or heavy for caliber bullets in strait walled magnum pistol calibers you will end up with a lot of compressed loads when using the slower burning spherical ball powders.

This is what pearce had to say about the mp-300:
Like most spherical/ball powders, metering was excellent with no important weight variance with thrown charges. One of the first observations (and concerns) was the bulky nature of PP 300-MP. Many loads were compressed and included appropriate powder charges with light and heavy-for caliber bullets. This was a concern, as it is not normally a good idea to compress spherical powders in handguns, as pressures
can become erratic. In discussing this matter with the folks in the lab, however, it seems this new powder was not sensitive to compression.
They carefully checked for erratic pressure curves or velocities, but none was detected. In studying loads, cases, primers, chronograph tape (as well as my notes) from data in the accompanying table, there was no indication that compressed powder charges produced erratic pressures or extreme spreads.