the Black Spot
Member
Never tried veetavooree powder. Has a bad taste In that name, lol.
Oh, for a 5 shot ruger!
Oh, for a 5 shot ruger!
44 Special Pet Loads???
- Thread starter Float Pilot
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Float Pilot
Member
Went out in the rain again,,,, Very unusual for Alaska in January.
This time trying to find a good load for the 215 grain (really 216) Hollow Base Wadcutters .
Range 15 yards
Chronograph 10 feet, covered with clear plastic because of rain.
Temp 35 degrees, heavy rain over snow and ice.
Bullet: 216 grain Hollow Base Wadcutter sized to .430
Brass: Winchester 4th reload
Primer: Winchester Large Pistol
COL: 1.199 inch, Roll Crimp
Guns: Taurus M-445 UL 2.1 inch bbl. and S&W M-29 6.5 inch bbl.
6.0 grains UNIQUE = 925 fps (Taurus) & 995 fps (S&W) 1.0 inch group both guns.
6.3 grains UNIQUE = 955 fps (Taurus) 1,080 fps (S&W) 1.5 inch group both guns.
5.4 grains RED DOT = 926 fps (Taurus) 1,000 fps (S&W) (1.5 in grp Taurus) (0.50 in grp S&W) Showed high pressure in Taurus snubbie even though the velocity was not any higher than other loads.
6.2 grains HP-38 = 944 fps (Taurus) 1,008 fps (S&W). (1.5in grp Taurus) (2.0 in grp S&W)
This time trying to find a good load for the 215 grain (really 216) Hollow Base Wadcutters .
Range 15 yards
Chronograph 10 feet, covered with clear plastic because of rain.
Temp 35 degrees, heavy rain over snow and ice.
Bullet: 216 grain Hollow Base Wadcutter sized to .430
Brass: Winchester 4th reload
Primer: Winchester Large Pistol
COL: 1.199 inch, Roll Crimp
Guns: Taurus M-445 UL 2.1 inch bbl. and S&W M-29 6.5 inch bbl.
6.0 grains UNIQUE = 925 fps (Taurus) & 995 fps (S&W) 1.0 inch group both guns.
6.3 grains UNIQUE = 955 fps (Taurus) 1,080 fps (S&W) 1.5 inch group both guns.
5.4 grains RED DOT = 926 fps (Taurus) 1,000 fps (S&W) (1.5 in grp Taurus) (0.50 in grp S&W) Showed high pressure in Taurus snubbie even though the velocity was not any higher than other loads.
6.2 grains HP-38 = 944 fps (Taurus) 1,008 fps (S&W). (1.5in grp Taurus) (2.0 in grp S&W)
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Float Pilot
Member
A few loads seem like a good defensive load for the Taurus M-445 UL...
SO FAR...
I stopped worrying about hollow points since the 44 SWC slugs are already larger in diameter starting out than a 38 special HP would be after full mushroom. Plus up here in Alaska you need the ability to punch through several layers of tough clothing.
The loads in red are what I am using for everyday carry.
207 Grain cast lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollow Point with Gas Check .
Winchester Brass, Winchester Large Pistol Primers, 1.500 Col, roll crimp
6.2 grains TiteGroup = 870 fps and a 0.75 inch group, very clean
7.3 grains HP-38 = 910 fps and a 1.0 inch group ME= 381 ft lbs
8.6 grains POWER PISTOL = 915 fps and a 1.0 inch group near point of aim at 15 yards. clean,,, GOOD LOAD
240 Grain Keith Style Semi Wadcutter:
Winchester brass, Winchester LP, 1.475 col roll crimp
6.5 grains Unique = Vel- Taurus = 790 fps and a 0.75 in grp at point of aim.
7.5 grains Power Pistol = Taurus=820 fps and a 1.0 inch group POA.
This seems to be the best all around load, not max in pressure and shoots the same no matter what the temperature might be...
9.0gr AA#5 = Vel= 803 fps and a 1.0 inch group 1 inch low
6.1 grains HP-38 = 785 fps with a 0.75 inch group
the Black Spot
Member
Hope to get a few more loads tested in a few weeks. Want to try blackpowder rounds in my bulldog.
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Float Pilot
Member
Looking for a lower powered target load so I can use the 215 grain Hollow Base Full WADCUTTERS from MATTS BULLETS.
Today:
Temp 25f , blowing snow
Bullet: 215gr HBWC .430
Powder: 5.0 grains RED DOT
Brass: Winchester
Primer: Winchester Large Pistol
Taper crimp with blunt lead just past the case mouth.
Vel=
2.1 inch Taurus = 885 fps and a 1.5 inch group at 15 yards.
6.5 inch S&W... = 940 fps and a 1.0 inch group at 15 yards.
Today:
Temp 25f , blowing snow
Bullet: 215gr HBWC .430
Powder: 5.0 grains RED DOT
Brass: Winchester
Primer: Winchester Large Pistol
Taper crimp with blunt lead just past the case mouth.
Vel=
2.1 inch Taurus = 885 fps and a 1.5 inch group at 15 yards.
6.5 inch S&W... = 940 fps and a 1.0 inch group at 15 yards.
Float,
Sorry I have been slow to get back here lately. I'll have to post the whole spreadsheet, but the Skeeter load is something worth a look. I used a Missouri Kieth 240gr LSWC, Starline Brass, CCI 300 Primer, and 7.5gr Unique. From the 445UL @ 10ft I averaged 855.8ft/sec with a SD of 33ft/sec. I'm sold on it. I have some of the rubber speed loaders back ordered from Midway. Seemingly you bought the last of them.
Sorry I have been slow to get back here lately. I'll have to post the whole spreadsheet, but the Skeeter load is something worth a look. I used a Missouri Kieth 240gr LSWC, Starline Brass, CCI 300 Primer, and 7.5gr Unique. From the 445UL @ 10ft I averaged 855.8ft/sec with a SD of 33ft/sec. I'm sold on it. I have some of the rubber speed loaders back ordered from Midway. Seemingly you bought the last of them.
i've gone as high as 5.3 Red Dot w/ the Lee http://www.midwayusa.com/product/92...-40-wcf-429-diameter-214-grain-semi-wadcutter
but will probably try your 5.0 soon
but will probably try your 5.0 soon
OP
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Float Pilot
Member
These Hollow base wadcutters from Matts Bullets really jacket up the pressure because they are seated so deep, AND because the hollow skirt is being forced against the sides of the barrel.
the other day I loaded some in 44 mag brass with a light load of Lil Gun and the darn things were still going almost 1,300 fps from a 6.5 inch model 29...
They really lead the bore fast...
the other day I loaded some in 44 mag brass with a light load of Lil Gun and the darn things were still going almost 1,300 fps from a 6.5 inch model 29...
They really lead the bore fast...
Pushing a HBWC to hard can leave the skirt in the barrel. If you want to push a WC I would use these,
https://www.rimrockbullets.net/cata...id=169&zenid=84d12057d3d1d27c6b5036ef11ca3081
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Float Pilot
Member
I am not trying to push them hard, it just so happens that I have not had enough time to work up a low-powered load.
They have been surprising me with how fast they are going , no doubt due to the fact that they take up so much case space...
I have 200 of them laying around...Along with a couple hundred 185 grain double ended wadcutters... Which is like shooting a throat lozenge.
What I really liked were the 207 grain semi-wadcutter hollow points with a gas check. They did not lead and they were very accurate. I have not been able to find anything like them,,,, at least so far.
They have been surprising me with how fast they are going , no doubt due to the fact that they take up so much case space...
I have 200 of them laying around...Along with a couple hundred 185 grain double ended wadcutters... Which is like shooting a throat lozenge.
What I really liked were the 207 grain semi-wadcutter hollow points with a gas check. They did not lead and they were very accurate. I have not been able to find anything like them,,,, at least so far.
Float Pilot : here are some of my pet .44 Spl loads with VivhtaVuori powders:
Please note these loads are not as fully documented as yours, as I don't have access to a chronograph.
But I know they work great from my 4" S&W 624 :
180 Gr. JHP : 8.8 gr. of N-340
200 Gr SWC : 8.5 to 8.7 gr. of N-340 (depending on lead or plated)
220 Gr HBWC (plated) : 4.1 gr. of N-320 or 5.3 gr. of N-340
Please note these loads are not as fully documented as yours, as I don't have access to a chronograph.
But I know they work great from my 4" S&W 624 :
180 Gr. JHP : 8.8 gr. of N-340
200 Gr SWC : 8.5 to 8.7 gr. of N-340 (depending on lead or plated)
220 Gr HBWC (plated) : 4.1 gr. of N-320 or 5.3 gr. of N-340
the Black Spot
Member
Thought i would add this:
Older CA bulldog
255 gr wheel weight cast bullet crimped in first lube groove (not the crimp groove)
25 gr of 3f blackpowder, slight compression
(Note: powder measured in volume spout then put on a scale to weigh it)
2.5" group at 12 yds (5 shots) freehand
Man was it fun to shoot! Sure turned the heads!
This gun shoots really well with 240 gr xtp and 5 gr of bullseye.
Older CA bulldog
255 gr wheel weight cast bullet crimped in first lube groove (not the crimp groove)
25 gr of 3f blackpowder, slight compression
(Note: powder measured in volume spout then put on a scale to weigh it)
2.5" group at 12 yds (5 shots) freehand
Man was it fun to shoot! Sure turned the heads!
This gun shoots really well with 240 gr xtp and 5 gr of bullseye.
JC676
Member
Float Pilot,
Boy, I'm sure enjoying this thread and all the information you and the other guys are providing.
I, too, am a huge .44 Special fan and own a Lipsey's Ruger Bisley Blackhawk (Flattop) with a 4 5/8" barrel, a Smith and Wesson M24-3 with a 4" barrel and a Taurus M445 UL with the 2" tube.
I have found Unique to be a very good powder in the .44 Special but it just burns so dang dirty. I've been working on developing loads with other powders for both 240 gr SWC and 200 gr RNFP (both from Missouri Bullet Company), with mixed results. The powder that I find most intriguing at this point is Accurate #5 (although I hope to find a pound of Accurate #7 sometime soon) as it gives outstanding standard deviations and extreme spread numbers. Not to mention that it burns extremely clean. My main complaint is that I'm just not getting anywhere near the advertised muzzle velocities.
My carry load for the little Taurus is the CCI Blazer 200 gr GDHP that chronographs 776 fps from the Taurus. The only numbers I could find for the 200 gr RNFP and #5 came from the latest edition of the Lee manual which lists 6.4 gr and 876 fps as the start load and 7.4 gr and 959 fps as the max load. I worked my way up to 7.2 gr of #5 but it only chronographed at 649 fps. Do you by chance have any data that is different that what comes from the Lee manual?
I ran into the same problem with both my Ruger and Smith. Accurate loading data says 6.8 gr of #5 and a 240 gr SWC should yield 860 fps while in actuality it is only running in the 690 fps range here in the dry climate of southern New Mexico. That is out of both guns.
I see where you will use the load data of a 250 gr SWC for use with a 240 gr SWC. That makes perfect sense to me, but ever since I read (can't remember where) that it is not a safe practice because the larger bullet has a larger bearing surface... or something of that nature... I've been shy about doing so. Can I take it that you have had no high pressure signs in doing that? I'd sure like to try that 8.5 gr load (and work up from there) if it will be safe to do so. I'm just looking to get that 240 gr slug to run over my chronograph at 800 fps or so without beating up my revolvers. Not so much a worry with the Ruger but I don't want to damage my beloved Smith... or my little Taurus for that matter.
Excuse the long-windiness of this post and sure hope you (or some of the other guys here) have time to respond. Y'all sure have a lot more experience than I do and I appreciate any help at all.
Regards,
Jon
Boy, I'm sure enjoying this thread and all the information you and the other guys are providing.
I, too, am a huge .44 Special fan and own a Lipsey's Ruger Bisley Blackhawk (Flattop) with a 4 5/8" barrel, a Smith and Wesson M24-3 with a 4" barrel and a Taurus M445 UL with the 2" tube.
I have found Unique to be a very good powder in the .44 Special but it just burns so dang dirty. I've been working on developing loads with other powders for both 240 gr SWC and 200 gr RNFP (both from Missouri Bullet Company), with mixed results. The powder that I find most intriguing at this point is Accurate #5 (although I hope to find a pound of Accurate #7 sometime soon) as it gives outstanding standard deviations and extreme spread numbers. Not to mention that it burns extremely clean. My main complaint is that I'm just not getting anywhere near the advertised muzzle velocities.
My carry load for the little Taurus is the CCI Blazer 200 gr GDHP that chronographs 776 fps from the Taurus. The only numbers I could find for the 200 gr RNFP and #5 came from the latest edition of the Lee manual which lists 6.4 gr and 876 fps as the start load and 7.4 gr and 959 fps as the max load. I worked my way up to 7.2 gr of #5 but it only chronographed at 649 fps. Do you by chance have any data that is different that what comes from the Lee manual?
I ran into the same problem with both my Ruger and Smith. Accurate loading data says 6.8 gr of #5 and a 240 gr SWC should yield 860 fps while in actuality it is only running in the 690 fps range here in the dry climate of southern New Mexico. That is out of both guns.
I see where you will use the load data of a 250 gr SWC for use with a 240 gr SWC. That makes perfect sense to me, but ever since I read (can't remember where) that it is not a safe practice because the larger bullet has a larger bearing surface... or something of that nature... I've been shy about doing so. Can I take it that you have had no high pressure signs in doing that? I'd sure like to try that 8.5 gr load (and work up from there) if it will be safe to do so. I'm just looking to get that 240 gr slug to run over my chronograph at 800 fps or so without beating up my revolvers. Not so much a worry with the Ruger but I don't want to damage my beloved Smith... or my little Taurus for that matter.
Excuse the long-windiness of this post and sure hope you (or some of the other guys here) have time to respond. Y'all sure have a lot more experience than I do and I appreciate any help at all.
Regards,
Jon
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Float Pilot
Member
44 Special, 2.1 inch barreled Taurus M-445UL.
Temp 09 degrees F, fading light on snow. Chronograph at 12 feet from muzzle. Target at 15 yards.
180 grain Hornady XTP HP. 10.5gr AA#5, WW Brass, WLP, Roll CrimpVel=900 fps and a 2 inch group 3.5 inches low
200 grain Hornady XTP HP.. 9.7gr AA#5, WW brass, WLP, Roll CrimpVel= 830 fps and a 2.5 inch group 3 inches low
240 grain Keith style SWC. 9.0gr AA#5, WW brass, WLP, Roll CrimpVel= 803 fps and a 1.0 inch group 1 inch low
I need to try AA #5 with the 216gr hollow based wad-cutters and the 185 grain full wad-cutters.
A couple other projects ( accurizing a shorty M-1A ) came up and I have not been playing with any good 44 special loads. I have been trying a few other loads, but the results were so crappy that I did not want to embarrass myself by posting them here...
Temp 09 degrees F, fading light on snow. Chronograph at 12 feet from muzzle. Target at 15 yards.
180 grain Hornady XTP HP. 10.5gr AA#5, WW Brass, WLP, Roll CrimpVel=900 fps and a 2 inch group 3.5 inches low
200 grain Hornady XTP HP.. 9.7gr AA#5, WW brass, WLP, Roll CrimpVel= 830 fps and a 2.5 inch group 3 inches low
240 grain Keith style SWC. 9.0gr AA#5, WW brass, WLP, Roll CrimpVel= 803 fps and a 1.0 inch group 1 inch low
I need to try AA #5 with the 216gr hollow based wad-cutters and the 185 grain full wad-cutters.
A couple other projects ( accurizing a shorty M-1A ) came up and I have not been playing with any good 44 special loads. I have been trying a few other loads, but the results were so crappy that I did not want to embarrass myself by posting them here...
Hey, Everyone. Great thread.
I think the reason you can shoot heavier bullets out of the .44 SPC is because most are lead, and lead doesn't have the pressures that a jacketed bullet does.
I am using a Rossi M720 Double Action only 3" .44 SPC. I have tried Unique with heavy and light bullets. I cannot get it to shoot correctly with any weight bullet. It shoots best with a 250 grain LSWC.
I have tried the factory Remington 246 grain Lead RN, and they shoot okay, but still shoot right. I think maybe my front sight is off. Very well might be.
I just recieved 6#s of Ramshot True Blue, and I am looking forward to trying this powder in .44 SPC, .44 MAG, and 9mm.
I will be sure to come back here, and give a report of how the powder did, and what I used for components.
I think the reason you can shoot heavier bullets out of the .44 SPC is because most are lead, and lead doesn't have the pressures that a jacketed bullet does.
I am using a Rossi M720 Double Action only 3" .44 SPC. I have tried Unique with heavy and light bullets. I cannot get it to shoot correctly with any weight bullet. It shoots best with a 250 grain LSWC.
I have tried the factory Remington 246 grain Lead RN, and they shoot okay, but still shoot right. I think maybe my front sight is off. Very well might be.
I just recieved 6#s of Ramshot True Blue, and I am looking forward to trying this powder in .44 SPC, .44 MAG, and 9mm.
I will be sure to come back here, and give a report of how the powder did, and what I used for components.
OP
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Float Pilot
Member
True Blue is close in burn rate to Green Dot and AA#5
It should work just fine....
It should work just fine....
The Ramshot load data calls for Federal 150. Which is a magnum primer. I have a bunch of those. We'll see how it goes. I am going to load both Federal LP and Federal LPM primers. I will also load Winchester LP primers to see which give the best accuracy for a given powder charge.
I can't wait to shoot the True Blue. Looks like graphite almost.
I can't wait to shoot the True Blue. Looks like graphite almost.
OP
OP
Float Pilot
Member
I went out today and tried some more AA#5 for FJC676
Sunny, on new snow, 36 degrees
15 yards from over my tool box. chronograph at 10 feet.
TAURUS M-445 UL
2.1 inch barrel.
185 grain Wadcutter
8.0 grains AA#5
WW brass / WLP
1.200 col roll crimp
Vel= 809 fps average 1.5 inch group
207 grain SWC-HP- w/gas check
9.2 grains AA#5
ww/wlp
1.520 col roll crimp
Vel=800 fps average 1.0 inch group
I love this bullet but can't find any more of them.
216 grains HOLLOW BASE wad-cutter
7.0 grains AA#5
1.210 col, roll crimp
Vel= 805 fps average and a 3 inch vertical group (weird )
255 grain Keith SWC
9.0 grains AA#5
ww/wlp
1.585 col and roll crimp
vel=790 fps average and a 1.0 inch group. (point of aim )
Sunny, on new snow, 36 degrees
15 yards from over my tool box. chronograph at 10 feet.
TAURUS M-445 UL
2.1 inch barrel.
185 grain Wadcutter
8.0 grains AA#5
WW brass / WLP
1.200 col roll crimp
Vel= 809 fps average 1.5 inch group
207 grain SWC-HP- w/gas check
9.2 grains AA#5
ww/wlp
1.520 col roll crimp
Vel=800 fps average 1.0 inch group
I love this bullet but can't find any more of them.
216 grains HOLLOW BASE wad-cutter
7.0 grains AA#5
1.210 col, roll crimp
Vel= 805 fps average and a 3 inch vertical group (weird )
255 grain Keith SWC
9.0 grains AA#5
ww/wlp
1.585 col and roll crimp
vel=790 fps average and a 1.0 inch group. (point of aim )
JC676
Member
Float Pilot,
Thanks for more data to consider. I really like AA #5 and hope I can get a load with it and a 200 gr RNFP to duplicate my carry load. The 9.5 gr load you used with the 207 gr SWCHP looks like it could be the answer for me. Is it safe to assume that you found no high pressure signs with it? All the published load data seems to be so dang conservative now days.
Thanks again for your efforts. All the testing you've done with a myriad of powders and bullets sure has been a huge help to the rest of us .44 Special shooters.
Best Regards,
Jon
Thanks for more data to consider. I really like AA #5 and hope I can get a load with it and a 200 gr RNFP to duplicate my carry load. The 9.5 gr load you used with the 207 gr SWCHP looks like it could be the answer for me. Is it safe to assume that you found no high pressure signs with it? All the published load data seems to be so dang conservative now days.
Thanks again for your efforts. All the testing you've done with a myriad of powders and bullets sure has been a huge help to the rest of us .44 Special shooters.
Best Regards,
Jon
OP
OP
Float Pilot
Member
There were no high pressure signs with the above tested AA#5 loads and they all ejected very easily. AA#5 does leave some black soot in the cases but nothing horrible.
Even though AA#5 is listed as being only slightly slower than GREEN DOT, ( which really burns clean ) it is obviously quite a bit slower per weight.
185 grain full wadcutter cast from Lyman mold 429348 sized to .430
All shots from a Taurus M-445UL 2.1 inch barrel WW Brass / WLP
7.3 grains Unique = 998 fps and a 1.0 inch group, some soot in cases
8.0 grains Unique =Vel- Taurus = 1,077 fps and a 2.5 inch group TOO HOT
6.0 grains Green Dot = 915 fps and a huge 5 inch group. with tumbling
7.5 grains Power Pistol =Taurus-903 fps 1.5 inch grp
8.0 grains Power Pistol = 941 fps and a 3 inch group with keyholes
6.1 grains TiteGroup = 924 fps and a 2 inch long vertical string.
7.2 grains HP-38 = 971 fps and a 1.0 inch group. Clean load
8.2 grains HP-38 = Vel= 1,090 fps and a 1.25 inch group at point of aim TOO HOT
8.0 grains AA#5 =Vel= 809 fps average 1.5 inch group
Even though AA#5 is listed as being only slightly slower than GREEN DOT, ( which really burns clean ) it is obviously quite a bit slower per weight.
185 grain full wadcutter cast from Lyman mold 429348 sized to .430
All shots from a Taurus M-445UL 2.1 inch barrel WW Brass / WLP
7.3 grains Unique = 998 fps and a 1.0 inch group, some soot in cases
8.0 grains Unique =Vel- Taurus = 1,077 fps and a 2.5 inch group TOO HOT
6.0 grains Green Dot = 915 fps and a huge 5 inch group. with tumbling
7.5 grains Power Pistol =Taurus-903 fps 1.5 inch grp
8.0 grains Power Pistol = 941 fps and a 3 inch group with keyholes
6.1 grains TiteGroup = 924 fps and a 2 inch long vertical string.
7.2 grains HP-38 = 971 fps and a 1.0 inch group. Clean load
8.2 grains HP-38 = Vel= 1,090 fps and a 1.25 inch group at point of aim TOO HOT
8.0 grains AA#5 =Vel= 809 fps average 1.5 inch group
Taroman
Member
Been playing with the Lyman 429348 wadcutters from Western Bullet.
Hit on 4.0 grains of Bullseye as a pure target load.
From my 624, I was able to hold the 10 ring on a B-8 target offhand at 25 yards.
So, had Western make me a 1000 of these.
They just arrived in a wooden crate, so off to the reloading bench.
Hit on 4.0 grains of Bullseye as a pure target load.
From my 624, I was able to hold the 10 ring on a B-8 target offhand at 25 yards.
So, had Western make me a 1000 of these.
They just arrived in a wooden crate, so off to the reloading bench.
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