443 ft-lbs for a brass rem58 8" barrel. Am I crazy?

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darkerx said:
-proofhouses in Europe are using 1400bars to proof black powder guns (1200 bars when below .44)

I'm curious about where this proof load information originated from.
How do you know that all of the European proof houses use the same proof load for every black powder revolver?
What kind of powder are they using to perform this proof, smokeless?
If you can provide any reference for this information then it may go a long way to prove your case to everyone that your load is not excessive and within the limits of established proof house standards.
Otherwise the information appears to only be hearsay.
So please show us where is the proof about the proof load that you've told us about, or where did you get this information from? :rolleyes:
 
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darkerx said:
Tssss... Have you heard about the CIP?

Answering a question with a question is strike one! :cool:
I have never been able to locate any published reference to support your stated proof numbers.
Please show those of us who are unable to find the proof!
After all, it's your assertion and yours alone. :)
 
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In CIP countries (US is NOT) standards have been established for the proofing of weapons (Italy, Spain, France, Belgium, etc. have the same proofing standards).

The link I posted shows a forum having made this kind of search, and display a spanish chart about the proofing of black powder REVOLVERS (same standard for ITALY as those are both CIP countries...).

I don't try to convince anyone... there are tons of so-called "experts" around here... I'm a noob... period.

;)
 
I read the translation of the thread that you provided and there is nothing there about revolvers at all. They are ordinary people discussing the proof load for a single shot [flint] pistol that was probably made with a rifle barrel blank.
There's still nothing that shows the basis for your assumption about the revolver proof load that you claim.
I understand when you say that you want to be scientific, mathamatical and rational. But please understand that there is no science or useful math without proof of the proofing standards for modern cap & ball revolvers.
What the proof load is for single shot rifles has simply not been proven or shown to be the same for revolvers. The same black powder proof load for a rifle or single shot pistol may not even fit into the chamber of a revolver.
So please understand that without better information the main assertion of your argument looks to be just speculation.
Your assertion could be right or it could be wrong, but there's no proof either way.
Obviously the steel revolver cylinder held together for you. But none of us really knows how close it came to equaling the actual proof load and so far that also includes you.
That doesn't mean that the load is safe or unsafe, it just means that everyone on both sides of the argument are making assumptions that haven't been proven. So everyone can just continue exercising their own sound judgement when they decide how much powder is safe to load. :)
 
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Have you read the Spanish chart in the forum? It shows 1400bars for black powder in REVOLVERS... That's the pressure they are aiming at. It is the caliber and the kind of powder that gives the protocol... Think a bit: they have marks for black powder... Not for black powder in flintstuff, percussionthingies, etc. :)

If they can't reach it, they are supposed to fill the chambers with the strongest proofing powder available. . 0b IS available... And it is way beyond the swiss 1 used in my loads...

Then either they proof at 1400bars or with full chambers of 0b... I'm safe in either case.

This being said, the bigger the loads the shorter the life expectancy of the weapon .. :)
 
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Thank you, I sincerely appreciate that!
I did miss seeing that chart and while it wasn't translated it appears that you could be right.
I would like to translate it though.

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You are wellcome... :)

I like arguing with you... you don't agree, don't believe me, etc. ... but you remain polite and respectful, and your questions are valid and pertinent, while your line of thoughts is always logical.

It makes this thread worth reading it... I can admit that without proofs being confident is not easy... ;)
 
1 gram of powder = 15.4323584 grains

Here's the translation that I could come up with using Google Translation and FreeTranslation.com:

Pressures for guidance (bar)

Test loads for pistols, revolvers and guns Handcrafted

For the guns, canons of one of Various, When the desparos of (the test) can not be Carried out, according to the requirements of the CI P., the charge of (test), basket establishments in, Keeping in mind the length of the / of the canon / is and the maximum use load of Predicted For This typo of weapon.
The amount of porvora test should be twice the charge of use.
For revolvers and guns Handcrafted, when bedroomed of gunpowder, or the cargo pod without piston, not help to contain dust load expected, the volume bedroomed, will be completed by the maximum amount of powder reference may contain.
The bullet will be inserted and pulled down to its outcrop.

3rd line repeated:

for handguns, one of several canons, when desparos of the test not be done, according to the requirements of IC P., test charge, will be establishments in taking into account the length / of the fee/ s and maximum use load forecast for this typo of weapon.
 
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I knew I would trigger this kind of very bright and captivating reaction... some humans are so predictible... it makes it a real pleasure when they display this pityfully their pettiness

laughing4.gif

You really are giving us a good laugh! Keep it up.
 
I know... some 62 years old junk men will laugh, some others will wonder...

It all depends on your abilities...:rolleyes:
 
The chart has some fine print and is not sourced. However it does seem to have some validity in a generic way, even though the fine print does contain a sort of exclusion for testing revolvers based on their smaller chamber capacity.
I say that it's generic because it categorizes a single shot pistol that's made with a rifle barrel blank the same as a revolver of the same caliber that has chamber walls that are only fractionally as thick.
The exclusion indicates that test loads should take such things as the recommended use loads and barrel length [or chamber length] into consideration. And it indicates that test loads should be double the useful load.
No where does it state what pressure the revolver proof loads are tested at by the proof houses.
We don't know what BAR the chamber walls were designed to withstand, so we can only assume that the manufacturers build their guns with an adequate margin of safety.
So we're back to operating on faith.
I don't doubt that the cylinder was strong enough to handle the proof type loads without catastrophic failure that was described in the chrony test firings.
The manufacturers probably know what it takes to make a cylinder fail. Unfortunately we don't.
Are we to believe that a revolver cylinder is capable of withstanding the same amount of BAR as a pistol barrel made from a rifle blank?
I don't know but that's where the fine print comes in.
But the cylinder does appear to be able to handle as much black powder as can be loaded into it despite some folks being uncomfortable with the fact that it was loaded with Swiss priming powder.
If we can accept that the Ruger Old Army can withstand firing chambers full of smokeless powder which it reportedly can, then we should be able to accept that Remington chambers can withstand being fired full of priming powder.
That's probably equivalent to or even exceeds a proof load that the proof houses use to test the cylinder.
But that's where a person's own judgement and faith in the manufacturing, inspection and materials are operational.
Can there be a flaw in the cylinder wall either from the beginning or from repeated test firings?
I suppose.
Whether it's a rifle, pistol or revolver, should there be warnings against self-proofing guns using priming powder?
I suppose.
Should we trust the figures in the chart?
I suppose.
Besides the cylinder, can a revolver be damaged by shooting such proof loads?
I suppose.
Can a shooter be injured by shooting such proof loads?
I don't know.
Anything is possible including injury caused by excessive blow back or due to related parts failure I guess.
Or there would need to be some kind of catastrophic failure due to some kind of flaw that we haven't seen any reports of yet.
The worst that we've seen described are barrels being shot loose from Colt Walkers when loaded with stiff charges of 777.
Is darkerx delusional in thinking that it's safe to fire such loads.
No, I suppose not. He's simply taking a calculated risk that's based on his own knowledge, belief, personal judgement and faith.
He's not asking anyone else to do it.
He only did it because he decided that he could do it safely with little risk of injury.
In that respect he's done it for us and it's nice to know that even a brass frame Remington revolver can withstand such abuse even if only for the small number of rounds involved in the test.
We all want to believe that the manufacturers are trustworthy, that the proof houses are trustworthy and we also assume that darkerx has reported truthfully about his loads and chrony readings too.
So in that respect he has earned mine. :)
 
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Well... I'll try to call the french proofhouse tomorrow... (I don't speak italian...)
 
arcticap,
I've read carefully your circuitous conclusion that as you said lacks the correct metrics.

I'm amazed...

~Mako

The worst case scenario that I can envision is if more than one chamber went off at a time in a chainfire event. But even then we still don't know what the total pressure would amount to or if the cylinder's design parameters would be exceeded.
It's possible that the cylinder would remain intact despite it all. That's where some proof is required based on the known information before a loading practice can be condemned.
I don't know what kind of pressure is created by a chamber that's not aligned with the barrel.
If someone knows then let them do the math.
Most folks will never try shooting such loads and just like any activity like handloading, people do it at their own risk especially since firing any remanufactured cartridges is well known to be against the manufacturer's recommendations.
There are photos posted all of the time of commercially remanufactured ammo that has destroyed guns. Does that mean that people should never buy it or make it themselves? If not then why is it even allowed to be sold?
Let me also add this. This discussion involves black powder and a cylinder that very well could be designed to withstand any black powder load that can possibly be loaded into it.
I'm not saying that it is or that it isn't.
But black powder and smokeless powder are not the same. I've yet to hear about a catastrophic cylinder failure involving a cap & ball revolver that was loaded with black powder.
Please let us all know if you're aware of a documented one. I'm not saying that it can't happen if there's some sort of a flaw. But I'm trying to remain open minded while keeping a scientific perspective that's based on facts and not emotion.
We've learned over time that some folks do carefully load smokeless powder in their Ruger Old Army and haven't blown themselves up or damaged their ROA. Folks may not like to hear about it but the truth is out there. We can all dig for the truth together and learn about it without creating any negative hype.
The best that I can make of this posting is that if it's going to be done at all and one has any doubts about its safety and they still want to do it, then don't proof load more than one chamber at a time. At least that way there's no chance of multiple discharges. However that might not satisfy someone who wants to protect themselves against a mean grizzly bear, a hungry mountain lion, a threatening wolf pack or even a rabid wild dog when in the outback. :)
 
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Hum... I use those full loads of swiss 1 routinely now... but I don't have the time to shoot much (24/36 rounds/week). And it is true that it is MY concern, and I don't tell people to duplicate those loads (as, for instance, Lyman and European proofhouses maybe aren't measuring pressures the same way...).

Then to settle this subject (are those loads dangerous or not?), I will send the brass-frame rem58, some swiss 1, some 0b, and some .457 bullets to some official proofhouse to measure the pressures obtained and deliver a certificate to explain the margins left against CIP proofing (and how they do it...).

What do you think about it? (I should have had bought a piezo pressure sensor, but I'm not "official"... well, for BP...).
 
A report about having a test performed would be a wonderful contribution to our permanent database.
It would be enlightening information and a much safer way for everyone to learn the truth of the matter and to then be able to spread the word about it. Otherwise we wouldn't ever be sure about whether someone is at risk of getting hurt or not.
Thank you darkerx for anything that you can do to help us along in that endeavor. :)
 
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Some suggestions:

You can use the Lame formula to calculate the strength of the
cylinder:

S = P * (r1^2+r2^2)/(r2^2-r1^2)

Here S it the tensile stress on the metal and P is the pressure.
r1 is the inner radius and r2 the outer radius of the barrel.

For my revolver the web thickness is 0.050" so S=P*5.08.

I don't know what kind of metal the cylinder is made of. Worst case
would be mild steel with S at around 40kPSI so the maximum pressure
would be about 8kPSI or 533bar.

If the cylinder is hardened 4140 steel these numbers could be 3X higher.

Maybe someone could try hardness testing the cylinders from some
revolvers and from that we could figure out the strength of the metal.

For the Colt guns I would think the next failure mechanism would be
sheering off the wedge. In the brass guns people claim the brass
behind the cylinder deforms which makes sense since the contact
area behind the cylinder is small. This would be a gradual failure and
not what they would be looking for in proof testing, but you could
monitor it with a feeler gauge.
 
I have also been trying smokeless in my cap and ball relvolver:

Using Quickload I worked out the following loads using a fast pistol powder
like TiteGroup for my 44 Pierta Navy.

Grains Press Energy FPS
3 4k 140 670
4 6k 228 856
5 9.4k 332 1034
6 13k 450 1202
7 18k 576 1361

I tried 3 grains + a pinch of BP to act as an ignitor. The gun fires but with
very little power. With 4.5 grains of TiteGroup it seems to shoot the same as with about 16 grains of Pyrodex (my normal load). I didn't go higher.

If someone had an old gun and some string, they could use smokeless
and increase the load to the point where something fails and determine
the fail point that way.
 
Have a dustoff chopper ready.......someone's gonna need medical transport....

I was staying outta this as it was only working with very fine grain BP, but when smokless came into the picture......well, I could not remain silent any longer....How can I put this and still be civil....hummm.....Have You Lost Your Mind???!!!!!

But what do I know? I was only was a professional gunsmith for the army, my police dept., and my own shop for four decades....only went to three schools and apprenticed under an old master gunsmith for five years. Guess I didn't learn the part where you could use smokless in a BP firearm.

Stepping down off the soapbox once again,
Wade
 
45-70 Ranger, you nailed it. I always wondered why the Italian repros say BLACK POWDER ONLY on the barrels. "It's because of the lawyers," is usually the response. Well, maybe the lawyers are onto something.
 
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